Re: [Amc-list] Hydrogen Power (was Holley Carb Questions .... )

["Kelly Hardie" <ramblinguy.kelly@xxxxxxxxx>]

Nu uh. We just gotta start drilling hydrogen wells, or is it mines?

Kelly

On 9/10/07, Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx <Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Well, That settles it....
>
> We're all Screwed!
>
> --
> Mark Price
> Morgantown, WV
> 1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
> " I was different before people dared to be different"
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
> > " From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
> > "
> > " The real, underlying fundamental problem is that our entire world is
> built
> > " upon "fuel" as in sticks gathered in the forest that fell there
> without any
> > " investment of energy or work on our part some time in the past -- in
> the form
> > " of fossil fuel. It's like spending a non-growth inheritance, or next
> month's
> > " rent money.
> >
> > a hunter-gatherer fuel economy
> >
> > " Every single other source of energy requires converting an existing
> source
> > " (sun, plants, whatever) into a transmissible or storable form.
> >
> > a fuel farming economy
> >
> > " There's no way around the no-free-lunch thing. Period. None.
> >
> > yupper!  you cannot negotiate with the universe about the laws of
> > physics.
> >
> > " Corn-based alcohol is a scam for politicians and oil companies. If
> every
> > " square hectare of fertile soil in the US was converted to corn
> production,
> > " the resulting alcohol would meet no more than 15% of US energy needs.
> >
> > i'm not sure this is right - but there -is- a fundamental flaw in
> > using near-food-grade produce as fuel.  adm [broker for 9/10 of the
> > crop] has to be snickering all the way to the bank.
> >
> > research is only just beginning on fuel crops.  more is needed.  and
> > the issue of competition for food acreage could indeed be a serious
> > problem.
> >
> > " Corn-based alcohol is a storage method for solar energy plus the
> energy it
> > " takes to produce all the components, which it turns out, is very high.
> >
> > see the food reference above.  goals are different; quality and safety
> > are paramount for food; efficiency is not.
> >
> > " Hydrogen bonds very tightly to many elements. It's extremely hard to
> break a
> > " chemical molecular bond. It takes a fixed and finite amount of energy,
> > " period. It's not reducable. Many cracking systems have other
> inefficiencies,
> > " and these can be improved, but it will always take more energy to
> split
> > " water -- or any other H2 compound -- than it produces. It's inarguable
> > " physics.
> >
> > this is true of -every- compound.  it's called entropy.
> >
> > " Draw your own conclusions. Mine are, reduction of unbelievably stupid
> energy
> > " consumption in the first place. We're incredibly stupid and wasteful
> as a
> > " race/culture (the overall human one). People have been tricked into
> > " thinking "conservation" means "giving up" but that's pure politics.
> > " Energy-neutrality would certainly mean a wholesale revolution in
> literally
> > " everyone's world.
> > "
> > " I don't have much hope for this being fixed. There's too much stuff
> with a
> > " stake in the current infrastructure.
> >
> > i sadly agree.  human nature is selfish and short-sighted, most
> > especially as community sizes increase and it becomes easier and
> > easier to leave the larger issues to 'someone else' - there are plenty
> > of someone elses, right?
> >
> > " On Friday 07 September 2007 20:15:07 Frank Swygert wrote:
> > " > Using hydrogen in a fuel cell to create electricity is supposed to
> be much
> > " > more efficient than burning the gas directly. That's why the fuel
> cell cars
> > " > from GM.
> >
> > so far, so good.  fuel cells can turn h2 into electricity extremely
> > efficiently, as much as 80% or better.
> >
> > only the h2 can be so used though - fuel cells that run on alcohol,
> > natural gas, etc just throw the carbon and its energy away.  so do the
> > refuelling stations that generate h2 from natural gas.  this is
> > efficient?  non polluting?  energy reducing?
> >
> > " > It would be easy to convert gas stations that way too -- just pump
> > " > the chemical(s) instead of gasoline. So the existing infrastructure
> could
> > " > be used, lessening costs impact.
> >
> > this is snake oil, on someone's part.  you can't just pump h2 through
> > gas pipelines.
> > 1. the molecule is so small it'll whiz through cracks ch4 [natural
> >    gas, mostly] won't even see.
> > 2. h2 is absorbed directly into the steel, producing a metallurgical
> >    phenomenon called 'hydrogen embrittlement'.  this is not a good
> >    thing for pipelines.
> >
> > you could pump water or something else and electrical power, and make
> > the h2 at the refuelling station, but that's a loss; natural gas can
> > transmit energy over long distance more efficiently than high tension
> > power lines.  you'd be better off making the h2 [from water, not
> > natural gas!] at the minehead and gasifying the coal or tar sands and
> > pumping that.
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
> > internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
> > adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought
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