Re: One more rant on SpeedTV's Muscle Car challenge

["Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxx>]

John, from my own experience, which includes several stints in different
'musclecar nationals' thru the years, there are a lot of people unwilling to
put their car on the track, like hemi Superbird or Cuda owners. Few and far
between no matter how much coaxing.
Most are simply content to show off the drive reports and various other
historical data supporting that their cars might turn 11s/12s out of the
box, so they let the paperwork do the talking. This to me at least is
confusing, and a little humorous at best. I fully understand one not wishing
to put their restored $175,000 Cuda on the track. On the other hand, they
would make a lot of us drunk fans in the stands happy if they did, even if
they did a slow go down the track at not all out! I believe cars were uh,
meant to be driven. Granted, you won't find restored Studebakers, Healeys,
and other 'musclecars' (Bilwin 3:16 All cars with engine are muscle car;
Teague wrong) at these events.

On the other side of the coin, you have Buick GNX's which are shoved in the
'big block' class with Chevys and stuff like that, as it is a turbo 231,
which is 231X2 cid.

As for the best Pony Car, 90% of this has already been done, you can pick up
a fine book like American Motors Muscle Cars from Brooklands Press, ISBN #0
907 073 581 for instance which compares many of the cars, brand new,
similiary optioned, in tests against each other. Braking, 1/4 mile, 0-60mph,
you name it, these cars were gone thru, not only in US, but Canada and
Australia. Everything from Rogue 343, Rebel 770 and SST to the AMX 3 is
here, real neat book to have and this would probably put much of this stupid
debate to rest.
Ya'll can order this book also from Brookland Press, here is their AMC link:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showprod.cfm?DID=6&User_ID=124719&st=358&st2=78895&st3=33199&CATID=13&ObjectGroup_ID=164


Granted, I guess it will never be put to rest as long as there are AMCers
who wish to 'prove something' one way or another, whether at track, on the
street or at a car show.

Again, it is just from my own experience above. Furthermore I want to add
this final thought. In two different 'musclecar shootouts' in 2000/2001,
there were no AMCs. And both magazines PLEADED with AMC fans to 'show their
colors' out there and be represented. This is something many of you have
seen me constantly bitch about. So you have a huge Iola Swap meet in AMC's
home state and there were no AMCs. And you have a MuscleCar Showdown in
Michigan, which has one of the largest AMC remaining populations around, and
well, is next to Wisconsin, and guess what? No AMCs show up! So I think
instead of worrying about who, what, is a musclecar, we should be worrying
about WHERE the AMC musclecars are and why won't people bring them out to
play, whether race, show, or drive. So you have two sides of the coin here.
One, is if a event is held, will people come? The answer is many times
yes.....and well....no. I would personally love to see a 'muscle car
challenge' which would include all AMC 'musclecars' or at least the host's
definition of a musclecar, not ours.

PS: John, feel free to forward any/all of this to the amc-list if you think
it will help others, esepcially in the uh, debate, or with the book, on
incite someone to bring their AMC out. Finally here are two photos ya'll
might like.
First Place in Class with my old 68 AMX "The Red Death" at the Muscle Car
Nationals. It never saw the track, only show.
http://www.planethoustonamx.com/Photo_Gallery_My/images/mycars5_jpg.jpg

My 68 Rebel convertible "Machine' was lead off car in front of over 50,000+
NHRA fans at the NHRA Southern Nationals here in Houston years ago. I put
the top down before driving down the track behind the KLDE Oldies van. The
announcer got it right too, saying over the loudspeaker '1968 American
Motors Rebel convertible 'Machine' 823 made, less than 70 known to exist;
lets give owner Eddie stakes a big hand!' and boy, that way cool! The car
got Aa LOT of attention in the pits later also, where I gave out over 300+
business cards. That are some of the big boys trailers behind the Rebel like
Amato, Hill, and others!
http://www.planethoustonamx.com/Photo_Gallery_My/images/mycars2_jpg.jpg
Eddie Stakes
www.planethoustonamx.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John W Rosa" <JohnRosa@xxxx>
To: "AMC List" <mail@xxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:15 AM
Subject: [BaadAssGremlins] One more rant on SpeedTV's Muscle Car challenge



I tried to figure out a way to better balance
and properly represent the Muscle Car challenge
that SpeedTV so magnificently botched, and came
up with the following.

First- dump the burn-out contest...just plain
stupid as the smoke was more a result of the
tire construction that some imaginary 'better
spinning capability' which only advertises
your poor traction.

Second- Muscle Cars (as previously defined)
were intended to be 1/4-mile cars. All else
was moot. Thus, only 1/4-mile comparisons
matter if you truly are gauging the 'Best
Muscle Car'.

Here's a shoot-out I'd like to see, where GM
doesn't stack the odds by submitting the same
damn car under all four marques.

All true Muscle Cars (2-doors, intermediate wheel-
base, powerful V8) all between 375 and 400 cubes.
Put this group through all of SpeedTVs tests (except
the spin travesty) and see what shakes out. If you
feel a more fitting car belongs in place of something
I placed here, let me know...but don't offer a Pony
or Sports car...this is a Muscle Car contest.

1970 AMC Rebel MACHINE 390 Ram Air
http://www.musclecarcalendar.com/TM13.jpg
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 Magnum w/ Air Grabber
http://www.70roadrunner.com/MVC-400S.JPG
1968 Ford Torino 390-4v
http://www.dearbornclassics.com/images/rl68torino.jpg
1970 Chevelle SS 396
http://www.musclecars-and-classics.com/images/70_Chevelle_19.jpg

Yea, I know....ours is a small block, the rest
are big blocks. To really test 'comparable' cars,
you need to drop down to, say, Pony Cars with Small
Block 4v V8s in the 340-360cid range.

Now it can be a test of multiple performance
criteria types, to include braking, handling, etc.
The winner being a true 'Muscle Car' becomes very
unlikely.

But now it gets complicated. Are we talking
about 'money-is-no-object' cars? Or do you
qualify entries based on original sticker
price and handicap each? After all, your
wallet was also an influence on what to
choose.

Do you include 'specials' like SC/Rambler,
SS/AMX and HEMI Dart?

Do you find concourse-restorations with ZERO
mods, running 1960s-formula fuel on proper
size, make and vintage model tires?

Do you restrict options so that if one competitor
doesn't have a rear sway bar, none may wear one?
Or do you simply say 'if it was in on the options
list, it's allowed'?

Do you establish a narrow CID range so comparable
engines are hauling the cars?

Heck, this can go on and on.

How about "Best Pony Car of the Muscle Car era"!?
(Small Block 4v V8s in the 325-375cid range)

1970 Javelin-SST 360-4v Go Pak Ram Air
http://www.javelinamx.com/javhome/events/albany98/70md1-1.jpg
1970 Cuda 340-4v w/ Shaker Ram Air
http://www.cars-on-line.com/13400/70cuda13465-A.jpg
1970 Mustang Mach 1 351-4v w/ Ram Air
http://www.americandreamcars.com/1970mustang091202.jpg
1970 Camaro SS 350-4v
http://www.classiccarsetc.com/JSA%20LATEST/Dscf2490.jpg

Now I think we have a contest!!
Heck, I'd almost finance this show myself if real
controls were in place to assure totally-stock,
un-tweaked cars were found and pounded for the
event.

John
















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