[Amc-list] Response to Oiling Problems and lifters
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[Amc-list] Response to Oiling Problems and lifters
- From: "Thomas, Jeff" <jeff.thomas@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:38:03 -0400
I have a comment on a recent meltdown that my AMC 360 experienced
related to new lifters. I am hoping this story will help save a lot of
you a great deal of pain and money.
I bought a cam and lifter set from Summit ealier this year and got
everything installed in July 2007. The problem I ran into was zero oil
to the top end of the motor. I had good pressure for about 45 minutes
during the break-in and I thought everything was fine. Took the car for
its maiden voyage and after about 20 miles lost all my oil pressure
suddenly and the car got incredibly hot. When we got it home and tore it
apart the heads were as dry as a bone, no oil circulating. All 16
pushrods were either bent or broken.
When I pulled the "new" lifters out and compared them to the old AMC
lifters I had replaced I found a terrible problem. The new lifters,
while physically the same as the old AMC lifters, had the oiling band in
a different location than the originals. The second issue was the new
lifters had no oiling hole drilled through the center. The AMC lifters
clearly have a squirt hole for oil through the center and an oiling band
in a completely different place than the new lifters. I called Summit
and questioned the tech guy. His answer floored me "the supplier has
grouped all AMC 360 lifters with the MOPAR 360 lifters. They are
basically the same motor so the lifters should work the same way." I
said "you're kidding right ?" and he said "No. That's the way our
in-house tech manuals read and that's the way we sell them". Sure enough
if you go on-line to Jeggs, Summit or look in a Mellings book the
lifters all have the same part number. In other words AMC 360 and MOPAR
360 are the same to them. I don't mean the Chrysler 360 that's in the
Grand Wagoneer I'm talking about the MOPAR 360. The cam fit like a glove
so they got it partly right.
I have been meaning to post this thread to the AMC community at large to
warn everyone to take a close look at their lifters before they drop
them down the bore and fire it up. I am at least $400 down in rebuilding
the heads not to mention scuffing/tearing up the paint in my engine
compartment when I pull out the block and tranny this weekend. Pay
attention to your business. I didn't and I should have known better. The
best advise is to buy your stuff from an AMC vendor that sells the right
parts for a living. If I do another engine I will definirely be talking
to Doug, Jeff, Jim, Bruce, Nick, Andre etc. Those are the guys that know
what you need. Best of luck from Florida.
Jeff Thomas
Orlando Fl
407-297-9500
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Delco Alternator Swap 70 V8 (Dan Curtis)
2. Re: noisy after rebuild (Dan Curtis)
3. Twin Grip (Keith Evenson)
4. Re: Twin Grip (JOE FULTON)
5. Re: noisy after rebuild (Andrew Blomer)
6. Re: if cam related..... (Dan Curtis)
7. Re: Twin Grip (Dan Curtis)
8. Re: if cam related..... (Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx)
9. Re: Twin Grip (Sandwich Maker)
10. Re: noisy after rebuild (Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx)
11. Re: noisy after rebuild (Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx)
12. Re: American Parts Depot (Armand Eshleman) (Sandwich Maker)
13. Re: American Parts Depot (Armand Eshleman)
(Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx)
14. Alignment stuff (Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx)
15. Re: noisy after rebuild (Dan Curtis)
16. Re: noisy after rebuild (Dan Curtis)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:25:21 -0500
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] Delco Alternator Swap 70 V8
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <7d4cde5f5c769966a1b292ad45bd5f68@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Have you tried going to the local parts store and getting a shorter
alternator drive belt? I am assuming that the reason you are so close
to the oil filter is that dimensions of the single wire alternator
version are larger than the stock alterntor so that when you pull the
belt tight the outer case is pressing up against the oil filter. If
that is the case, a one or two inch short belt should do the trick.
Regards,
Dan Curtis
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:37:19 -0500
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <d92d4a73f5e5bd1a06720f11f4ae0273@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I only have experience with AMC V-8s and not the 6 clinders but cam and
lifters are eseentially the same no matter what engine they go in. If
your old cam and lifters had substantial wear on them, no matter what
you do with the new lifters on the old cam you will not get rid of the
noise unless you also replace the cam as well. My rule of thumb has
always been to replace both if one or the other needs to be replaced.
What about the old lifters, do you still have them? If so you may want
to soak them in solvent to clean them, then drop them in a bucket of oil
and reinstall to see if the noise goes away, hopefully the new lifters
have not changed the old cam's profile enough for it to be an issue.
I am not sure how much work it would be to swap lifters on the old AMC 6
but I seem to recall side covers on the block covering the lifters on
older 6 cylinders that owned in years past so hopefully an older AMC six
won't be that much of a pain to swap out the lifters.
Regards,
Dan Curtis
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:22:41 -0500
From: Keith Evenson <epd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Amc-list] Twin Grip
To: drivers and fans. AMC/Rambler owners <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <D38690C9-B0FF-486E-977C-AB4236008F23@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
So is there any ID #'s to look at to see if a car came with a twin
grip? Thanks Keith
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:28:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: JOE FULTON <piper_pa20@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] Twin Grip
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans." <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <945557.25732.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
If you have the build sheet, you might find an axle
code. If so, someone with an AMC data book for that
year, might be able to decode it.
Most AMC axles were marked with a code on the
passenger side of the axle tube (on the rear side)
with a code indicating the axle ratio and whether the
axle was twin grip. The axle codes are in many of the
TSMs for the 60s and 70s model cars.
Joe Fulton
Salinas, CA
--- Keith Evenson <epd@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> So is there any ID #'s to look at to see if a car
> came with a twin
> grip? Thanks Keith
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:33:31 +0000
From: "Andrew Blomer" <lotharamc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY127-F40ECC46568A22933A7B90AACCD0@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
I see the second subject I listed about a new cam came in first. It
doesn't
make much sense the way it is.
The engine was running in the car a month ago. I had a headgasket blow,
and
it was making noise at startup. So I decided to take it out, and freshen
it
up.
The engine origianlly came from an Ambassador parts car that had "68k"
miles
on it. I don't know for sure though. I put about another 10K on it. I
didn't
find anything to lead me to believe otherwise. It could be that the new
lifters are just bad. However, like you said it doesn't matter if they
are
new or not, if they arn't rotating, the cam will be gone soon enough.
I don't want to replace a cam, and still have this problem when I get it
going again. If it does, there will be a 66 Cross Country for sale
fairly
soon.
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more....then map the best
route!
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20the
ater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&sce
ne=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:49:43 -0500
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] if cam related.....
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <afc6185b2af47b80e7820b7f43f638be@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I would be surprised if going from a .381 to a .416 lift would bind off
the springs from a mere .035 change in valve lift.
Changing the cam will require the usual removal of the lifter and
pushrods and removal of the timing cover and timing chain along with
anything that is attached to our around the timing chain so it is no
trivial process. One thing that will make it MUCH easier to install the
new cam however is to get the longest bolt you can find to screw into
the end of the cam so you have levarage to gently move it around when
reinstalling.
Steve Feniello(amxgopak with ebay store
http://stores.ebay.com/Way-Out-West-AMC-AMX-Javelin-Parts_W0QQssPageName
ZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZkm )usually has a nice cam installation tool
that he sells on ebay for under 20 bucks so you may want to contact him
if you decide to replace the cam and make it much easier to remove the
old one and install the new one.
Regards,
Dan Curtis
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:53:11 -0500
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] Twin Grip
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <4d1bd30a3f147fec2cd7c226c6f2194c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
There is a build code but otherwise the axle is the only other indicator
that I am aware of. Of course there is always the trusty manual way to
jack it up and spin one wheel to see if the other spins an equal amount
with it.
Regards,
Dan Curtis
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:00:18 +0000
From: Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] if cam related.....
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans." <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<083020071700.6262.46D6F7A2000C3244000018762216549976CDCBCD0A0C079D9F059
D0E03@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Depends on the rest of the car,
1 bbl or 2bbl?
Gears?
Trans?
I'd suspect that with a cam of that mild lift you will not hurt anything
and see a mild improvement.
The danger with cam swapping is the temptation to go too large. This is
one case where bigger is not better!
especially with a six, too much cam kills the bottom end torque.
While any engine this old could probably stand new valve springs, stock
will most likely handle that cam.
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
" I was different before people dared to be different"
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:12:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] Twin Grip
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200708301712.l7UHCWk26665@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: Keith Evenson <epd@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" So is there any ID #'s to look at to see if a car came with a twin
" grip? Thanks Keith
as joe said, there's a ratio code. it's usually a single letter [eg.
A] for open, doubled [AA] for twingrip.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:17:54 +0000
From: Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans." <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<083020071717.22941.46D6FBC20006093C0000599D2216549976CDCBCD0A0C079D9F05
9D0E03@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If you do the cam, I'd take extra time to inspect the cam bearings as
now is the time.
I doubt they are bad with those pressure readings.
Those are close to what my 4.0L carries with an HV pump and 10k on it!
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
" I was different before people dared to be different"
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Andrew Blomer" <lotharamc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> I see the second subject I listed about a new cam came in first. It
doesn't
> make much sense the way it is.
>
> The engine was running in the car a month ago. I had a headgasket
blow, and
> it was making noise at startup. So I decided to take it out, and
freshen it
> up.
>
> The engine origianlly came from an Ambassador parts car that had "68k"
miles
> on it. I don't know for sure though. I put about another 10K on it. I
didn't
> find anything to lead me to believe otherwise. It could be that the
new
> lifters are just bad. However, like you said it doesn't matter if they
are
> new or not, if they arn't rotating, the cam will be gone soon enough.
>
> I don't want to replace a cam, and still have this problem when I get
it
> going again. If it does, there will be a 66 Cross Country for sale
fairly
> soon.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more....then map the best
route!
>
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20the
ater&cp=
>
42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=95060
7&encTyp
> e=1&FORM=MGAC01
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From: "Andrew Blomer" <lotharamc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:33:52 +0000
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:23:46 +0000
From: Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans." <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<083020071723.18409.46D6FD220008C87F000047E92216549976CDCBCD0A0C079D9F05
9D0E03@xxxxxxxxxxx>
No side covers on an AMC 6 :[
Mixing the lifters will quickly kill the cam. They need to stay on their
correct lobes.
I've done new lifters on used cams many times with no ill effects,
however the current conditions and questionalbe lifter quality can make
it all a crap shoot!
For a new cam I'd use nothing short of Diesel grade, the old non
emission grade, and a can of GM EOS for breakin. Aftermarket/replacement
cam engines would all get EOS at every change if I was running them. no
matter what oil I ran.
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
" I was different before people dared to be different"
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
> I only have experience with AMC V-8s and not the 6 clinders but cam
and lifters
> are eseentially the same no matter what engine they go in. If your old
cam and
> lifters had substantial wear on them, no matter what you do with the
new lifters
> on the old cam you will not get rid of the noise unless you also
replace the cam
> as well. My rule of thumb has always been to replace both if one or
the other
> needs to be replaced.
>
> What about the old lifters, do you still have them? If so you may
want to soak
> them in solvent to clean them, then drop them in a bucket of oil and
reinstall
> to see if the noise goes away, hopefully the new lifters have not
changed the
> old cam's profile enough for it to be an issue.
>
> I am not sure how much work it would be to swap lifters on the old AMC
6 but I
> seem to recall side covers on the block covering the lifters on older
6
> cylinders that owned in years past so hopefully an older AMC six won't
be that
> much of a pain to swap out the lifters.
>
> Regards,
> Dan Curtis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:26:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] American Parts Depot (Armand Eshleman)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200708301726.l7UHQJf26961@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "John Eckersley" <john.eckersley@xxxxxxxxx>
"
"
"
" I was considering whether there might be a better option than
" resleeved calipers (not least because I have to ship the old ones to
" the USA and that ain't cheap) - I hear the later single pot setup is
" more reliable but I have been told the spindles and other fittings
" need changing. I was wondering if there are any "performance"
" calipers (wilwood, brembo, whatever) that would fit in place of the 4
" pot bendix ones.
the later designs got progressively more reliable and trouble free,
though the strongest are probably the '74-8 'big bendix', with the
largest calipers, pads, and rotors. these calipers were also used by
ford, on cars and trucks up to 6900 lb f-250s.
'74-8 bendix - big and small - used different wheel bearings from all
other amcs, so you have to use their spindles in the swap*. as for the
others - we usually swipe the conversion parts from a junk car, and
since you have to take the spindles off to get the caliper brackets
it's just as easy to take them too and be assured the whole system
fits. i'm not positive the spindles are any different, but i also
don't know anyone who's made the comparison. it wouldn't surprise me
to find they're the same.
best for parts availability is the '82-3 delco setup. rotors are
amc-only, but the calipers were also used on the popular jeep xj and
yj up through '89.
* the only difference i can find between '77-8 and '79-'81 -small-
bendix is the spindle and matching rotor. i believe you could switch
to the easier to find '79-'83 rotor by swapping spindles.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:52:25 +0000
From: Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] American Parts Depot (Armand Eshleman)
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans." <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<083020071752.23912.46D703D90006880100005D682216549976CDCBCD0A0C079D9F05
9D0E03@xxxxxxxxxxx>
The only problem I ever had with an item from APD is UPS left it on the
front porch and my dog, then a puppy ate it!
It was all the rubber items and bushings for my clutch linkage! Must
have smelled good to a puppy! I taught him some new swear words that
day!
For years afterwards he would duck and run for cover when I swore!!!
Luckily I salvaged enough to install my linkage, though I ended up using
some of the old stuff that was still good :[
It's still in there though!
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
" I was different before people dared to be different"
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "John Eckersley" <john.eckersley@xxxxxxxxx>
> APD have been great with me - shipping parts to England no problem and
> excellent service. Doug has been great at answering my e-mail
> questions.
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:26:43 +0000
From: Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Amc-list] Alignment stuff
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx (AMC List)
Cc: "AMC-DelMarVA: yahoogroups.com" <AMC-DelMarVA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<083020071826.12346.46D70BE2000DF5590000303A2216557996CDCBCD0A0C079D9F05
9D0E03@xxxxxxxxxxx>
This may be a bit too old to let anyone get a copy. I meant to send it
in earlier, but it keeps slipping my feeble mind, or I have CRS. Anyway
the day before I left for Hawaii, I don't rememebr why I thought I
needed to come back here?, anyway I picked up some magazines and the Rod
and Custom mag has a pretty in depth story on alignment theory.
I did not notice what month the issue is.
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
" I was different before people dared to be different"
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:58:23 -0500
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <435f82666287d098fc77bea77005bd51@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Good point on mixing up the old lifter's alignment on the old cam. It's
been so long since I removed lifters and reinstalled without replacing
them I completely forgot about having to keep them in order!
Regards,
Dan Curtis
forum moderator for
www.amazingmusclecars.com
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:12:27 -0500
From: Dan Curtis <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] noisy after rebuild
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <8751f63a75fb0b27eca8cb0ae94c2dda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I've had a hefty Crane cam in my AMX 390 in the past that only rotated
the lifters a small amount back and forth so that it created a figure 8
looking mark on the bottom of the lifter. I put 60K miles on that car
and the motor was as strong when I sold it as it was when I first had it
rebuilt with no cam or lifter wear despite the partial rotation and very
head duty crane valve springs.
I would check to be sure to look that the lifter is indeed stationary
and not just moving a small amount or rotating back and forth.
Regarding whether or not the lifters are bad, it is highly doubtful that
more than one of them would be bad at the same time. I would be more
inclined to think that who ever you got the parts from may have given
you the wrong ones.
Regards,
Dan Curtis
forum moderator for
www.amazingmusclecars.com
------------------------------
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