AMC-List Digest, Vol 10, Issue 57
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 10, Issue 57
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- Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:27:54 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: bad bearing... somewhere... (Sandwich Maker)
2. Re: Blasphemy (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
3. AMC racing parts for sale (BaadAss73Gremlin@xxxxxxxxxxx)
4. Blasphemy (jackbarncord@xxxxxxx)
5. Re: Blasphemy (Tom Jennings)
6. Re: Copyright/copyleft/GNU license? (pertaining to AMC info
files) (Tom Jennings)
7. Re: Continuing Saga of Doc the Jeep, Part II.5 (Nick Lenarz)
8. Re: Blasphemy (AMO Conours Judging)
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
9. Re: Blasphemy (namdra@xxxxxxxx)
10. Transmission Interchange.. (Jerijan)
11. Re: AMC Progress (Tom Jennings)
12. Re: Continuing Saga of Doc the Jeep, Part II.5
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:10:22 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] bad bearing... somewhere...
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200611281610.kASGAMj20796@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
"
"
" by chance, there is no one on here that has a set of 3.55 or so
" gears for that model 15 tt axle is there? if i could get a 355 gear
" and carier to fit in there, would i be able to change it over to one
" piece axles and would it be strong enough to keep behind the 304?
" maybe work without that torque tube with the new pinion?
in the late '80s when amc was transitioning from amc15hd axles to
dana35s in the xj, there was a changeover bearing and seal to allow
axles to be swapped. these are both still bearing retained.
'80s d35s and i presume this amc15hd have amc20 housing end flanges,
but i'm not sure if there's any other difference. d35 axle tubes are
still pretty small, 2 3/4" or 2 5/8".
later d35s have mopar housing flange ends and c-clip retained axles;
afaik the diff carrier still fits older d35s and amc15s, if you really
wanted to switch to clip-retained axles.
a bunch of ifs, but this might be a way to use shortened d35 axles.
they're strong enough to take a 4.0, which is a fair match for a
stock 304. cherokees and wranglers have rolled up a lot of miles with
these...
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:20:51 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blasphemy
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B68CD0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Another one of easy to find engineS I would consider in the dare to be
different category would be the 4.7 Used in many late model Dodge
products.
Good strong running motors you can pick up cheap. Plus overhead cams and
you
can even use the 287 fender badges :]
My DakotaQuad cab 4X4 knocks down a solid 18-19mpg and runs excellent.
In a car body it would make a nice all around runner.
Not something I would ever do, but I'd like to see one done!
-----------------------------------------
But why not? There is strong evidence that the design of the 4.7 was
heavily influenced by AMC/Jeep engineers. It's even possible that it was
already on the AMC/Jeep engineering drawing boards for future
production, just like the first generation Grand Cherokee. It has more
in common with GEN-3 AMC V-8s than with any Mopar engine (the oil pump
in the timing cover is the most obvious commonality with AMC GEN-3 V-8s
-- no Mopar has that). It's the closest thing to a "GEN-4 AMC V-8" that
there is, unless you want to consider the (expensive) aluminum block
engines such. I don't because they are low production specialty blocks,
not regular production. Being able to use the GEN-1 287 badges and be
honest is just a plus. I'd definitely use one of these engines if it
came up at a good price -- you can probably buy a wrecked or well used
GC with one cheap enough to use it as a donor vehicle.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:38:00 +0000
From: BaadAss73Gremlin@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC racing parts for sale
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<112820061638.18961.456C65E8000C7D6F00004A112205886442020704030A9DB9CCC99C9CBE0B0E0EBD@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
1969 AMX posi model 20 rear ,set up for leafs or 4 link Moser one piece axles,welded axle tubes,new brakes with new 4.56 gears 850$
AMC Gremlin v8 crossmember blasted and painted'no motor plates' 150$
1966 rebuilt Borg Warner P code T10 4 speed trans comes with Mr.gasket inline 4 speed shifter with the linkages both trans and shifter are near mint 650$
I'm located in Ft.Pierce Fl. all prices do not include shipping.Please email me at BaadAss73Gremlin@xxxxxxx if interested or call me at 772-460-5055 ask for Bart
regards
Bart M.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:53:03 +0000
From: jackbarncord@xxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] Blasphemy
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx (AMC List)
Message-ID:
<112820061653.7266.456C696F00023B0400001C6221602813020B9D010C029D0E0D050C0E06@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Here's my two coppers.
If you are going to transplant a brand X drive train into your AMC, GM, Ford, Mopar or whatever, you need to be prepared for a miriad of responses. Everyone will have an opinion spanning the full range from total approval to total disapproval. The thing to keep in mind is that these are opinions. I don't think anyone is going to introduce a bill at the state of federal level to stop freedom of drive train selection, are they?
As for me, wakling down a line of cars with the hoods open, if I see something under the hood that screams, "I don't belong here." I don't get vocal, I just don't see what the owner saw in making the transplant. I may have a reaction from really not liking the car to a peeked interest of, "How did they do that!" However, for me the bottom line is I, personnally, would like to see something close to what is suppose to be under that hood, under that hood. The transplant cars automatically fall into a different catigory for me. Yeah, I'm sorry to see an AMC with nothing more imaginative than a small block Chevy in there and that may be where AMC fans find fault. For the most part, we're a different breed and anybody can use a SBC for an easy, inexpensive drive train. So that just goes agianst the AMC breed's need to be different.
Did I mention that we may be confusing opinion with directives on drive train selection? It is your choice to use whatever you want to power your car just be prepared(and forewarned). If some one decides to look down their nose at your car, their going to do it and there is no need to feel it's a personal attack. Maybe you used the wrong fasteners to afix the period correct badge to the front fender or maybe you like the fender mounted turnsignal indicators like Mopar used for years, I do..... :-) Or it could be the brand X power plant.
I belong to a motorcycle rights organization, No, it's not a gang. Most of the guys ride Harley-Davidson, I ride a Honda. They don't treat me any different than the other guys, but they don't like and wouldn't buy a Honda motorcycle. (Here comes a dig) I just like to get where I'm going and my Shadow has never failed me with 34,000 care free miles so far. Here is where it gets spooky. The HD guys will look down their noses at other HD guys because they replace their worn out HD motor with a RevTech brand motor. A more socially acceptable choice is S&S. Don't ask me why.... I don't get into those conversations.
I may be getting in too deep here so I'll hop down and back away slow like, okay?
1
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:38:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blasphemy
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0611280933340.6716@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Larry R. Daum wrote:
> Admit you don't have a true concourse and fix the problem , don't
> just cover the problem up. thanks , Larry R. Daum
Wow, pretty interesting!
I agree, if "concours" has an agreed-upon meaning in the car
world, then AMO should meet it, or say that they don't, and
call it something else. Either is fine.
It is ha-ha funny that no one opened the hood! D'oh! But it is
amateur judging, in all senses of the word, good and bad. Let's
hope the stakes don't get too high and take all the fun out
of meets though; that's another reason to have high-standard
Concours-type classes for those with $$$ that want to actually
compete at a national level.
Not that I am accusing you of anything, or telling YOU anything
new Larry!!! -- but we also need to keep in mind the point of
this all -- fun, preservation and documentation of our unique
cars, helping each other. Oh yeah, and fun.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:53:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Copyright/copyleft/GNU license? (pertaining to
AMC info files)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0611280948270.6716@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I was thinking first of the Creative Commons licenses. They have
an interactive website that lets you customize legal copyright
boilerplate to achieve various ends.
As an example, I assume Steve would like to retain copyright
control over the work (note) but allow others to modify/add to
it, and to prevent commercial resale of the entire work without
his permission. JUST AN EXAMPLE.
There are also the various GNU licenses, but CC is easier to
use for this.
It came up with this sample:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/
(Crappy summary here)
Creative Commons Deed
Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5
You are free:
* to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work
* to make derivative works
Under the following conditions:
* by Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner
specified by the author or licensor.
* Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial
purposes.
* For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to
others the license terms of this work.
* Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission
from the copyright holder.
Your fair use and other rights are in no way affected by
the above.
This is a human-readable summary of the Legal Code (LINK TO
the full license). Disclaimer LINK TO disclaimer
I used this site to create it:
http://creativecommons.org/text/publish-website
This is the home page:
http://creativecommons.org
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:19:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Nick Lenarz <n9viw@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Continuing Saga of Doc the Jeep, Part II.5
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <688966.40609.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Here's a little something to put in your pipe: Altering the cam
> advanced also mods the power band (as in where it starts/stops in the
> RPM band) I used the 3 key set in my '66 Fairlane's 289 and couldn't
> get any top end RPM. It had brutal power to 1700 RPM then fell
flat...
> It also pinged like a banshee! Retarded the cam and voil?! no more
> probs!
That's what I'm hoping to experience with mine. I pulled the front end
of the Jeep last night, and got the timing set out. Sure enough, it was
set to the advanced position, and a review of the documentation that
came with the timing set showed me that it imparted an extra FOUR
degrees of advance, not three! Oy.
When I reset the crank gear and reinstalled the set, it didn't seem to
move either crank or cam in the least, so I wondered if I did it wrong.
I spent half an hour looking at the timing set in relation to the cam,
trying to figure out how such a small change could make such a huge
difference in running. I finally figured it's just that 4* is minuscule
in physical reality, but valve timing is so precise it doesn't take
much to throw it off.
> btw this cam is pretty radical compared to older amc six cams. the
> '76-80 2bbl and '81-'90 cams are in the upper 250s, 257 and 259 deg
> iirc. my '66 cam is 244 and i have a book that lists that as stock
> replacement for all '64-'79 except the late '70s 2bbl. when i went
> to build a hot 232 up in the early '80s, the most radical hydraulic
> cam i could find was 278 deg.
> the '87-'98 4.0 cam is 280. in '99 they reduced exhaust duration to
> the 260s.
Andrew, I would be interested in seeing this book, or at least an
excerpt thereof. The Comp Cams cam I have lists its duration as 252
deg. If the stock cam had MORE duration, why would they advertise this
cam as having increased torque and power from the stock unit? It also
makes me wonder what the profile of the stock 4.2 cam used in '82 was,
and whether I would have been better off to have kept it and simply
degreed it myself rather than buying a new cam when I rebuilt the
engine?
I should be able to get back to the engine on Wednesday night, and if
all goes well, I will have it started before too long... I will post my
results afterward.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:44:21 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blasphemy (AMO Conours Judging)
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B68DAF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm not so sure the judges didn't look under the hood of the Chevy
powered Hornet so many years ago. I think the incident did bring the
question of what to do with non-AMC powered cars to the fore-front, and
it caused a stir within AMO, but I don't think it did any more than
bring up more questions. I would never have asked for the award back,
even if I thought an award was made by mistake. I'd have to hear quite a
tale to return an award, that's for sure!
In this case the car was entered in the correct class -- modified AMC.
It is still an AMC without an AMC engine, isn't it? If I had been
judging I'd have considered it just that and went on, probably knocked
some points off because the Chevy engine doesn't look as good in the
engine bay than an AMC engine, but that's about it. If everything else
was well done, it could still be a winner, and even the engine bay could
conceivably get a better score than an AMC powered car if the
craftsmanship and detail was that much nicer. Apparently someone
complained and raised the question about it not being AMC powered.
This did bring the question up of how much "foreign" content can be
allowed and still call it an AMC, and how much content is the engine? In
my view if the body is AMC, the car is AMC. It would certainly be
registered that way in most states, regardless of what's under the hood.
I've been told that some states allow titling custom cars by the make of
the engine. I believe that only applies to fabricated cars, or cars that
don't have a previous title though -- not sure. A number of cars were
turned away just a couple years ago and not allowed to enter judging
because they had "foreign" power plants. This ticked a lot of people
off. My car, for example, a 63 Classic with a Jeep 4.0L, would be
allowed in a modified class, but someone with a Chevy V-8 wouldn't be
allowed to be judged at all. One could easily argue that the EFI 4.0L
was never used in a 63 Classic, so it's just as "foreign" as the Chevy
V-8. The same could be said for a 401 Pacer. So how foreign does it have
to be? Transmissions and rear axles are often changed (GM 700R4, Ford
9", Chrysler 8.75", etc.) and allowed in the AMC classes. Even those
cars should be in the modified class, but most would pass inspection for
restored since no one checks that hard -- if it has all stock appearance
it's generally allowed. No one crawls under the car to check the rear
axle and trans, though at least for the highest class or two they
should.
It took a few years, but the eventual response was the creation of the
new "non-AMC powered" class. So the answer to the question is it's a
modified AMC if it has AMC power (or a derivative of such, like the Jeep
4.0L), and if it has another manufacturers power plant it goes into the
"non-AMC powered" class. Nothing happens fast in a club that has one
general meeting a year (which is many national car clubs), and it takes
time to collect opinions through the newsletter/mail and disseminate it
to board members too. I think the new class solves a lot of problems and
will draw a few more people into the AMC world. It's better than turning
people away, IMHO! Besides, if Joe Schmo has a Rambler with a Chevy
engine in it, he still needs a lot of AMC specific parts (glass, door
seals, trim, etc.). So if he wants a nice looking car, he'll be buying
things. The car will also be preserved for parts if nothing else, though
few cars are mangled to the point they can't be returned to stock. That
is unless a Mustang II or some other goofy suspension has been installed
(that's a pet peeve of mine -- nothing wrong with the stock suspension
in comparison to an MII, which is difficult and expensive to graft in).
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:37:37 -0600
From: namdra@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blasphemy
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061128.133737.-16573259.4.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
My feelings on the subject are, even though I prefer AMC power in an AMC,
is that if a person installs a non-AMC engine in his AMC, that is his
choice.
But when it comes to the NAMDRA meets, we do have a class (and have had
for quite a few years) in the car show for non-AMC powered AMC's. And we
do not do concurs/concourse judging. But for the racing portion of our
events, the AMC or Jeep racing must be AMC powered. Every year I try to
get how the members feelings about keeping this the rule and so far the
majority have. In our last newsletter I again asked the members for their
feeling on this, even mentioning that maybe we should allow Chrysler
powered AMC's to race seeing that Chrysler bought out AMC. So far the
answers have been about even, but not many members have replied yet.
Every year we do get non-AMC powered AMC's attend our national meet and I
feel sorry they can't race but the rules are on all our flyers, pre-entry
forms, etc. But luckily, there is usually racing for all vehicles on
Friday evening and after the AMC racing on Saturday, so the non-AMC
powered AMC's do get a chance to race, just not the AMC brackets.
Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974, NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:09:52 -0500
From: "Jerijan" <jerijan@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Transmission Interchange..
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001c01c71329$2a7f6f50$640fa8c0@gremlin>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Greetings Group...
I have just spent the forth day doing an 'easy change' placing a 232 Transmission from 1970 into a 1965 American with a 196.
Easy Change...almost...
I was told it was a drop and do...
Except...
I had to change the input shaft and the shaft the oil pump mounts to so the Torque converter would fit...
This is because the torque converter from the 196 would not fit the splines on the 232's tranny...Changed the bell housings and tried the 232 torque converter and...the bell housing would not allow the transmission to 'go in'..it hit the cowl with the engine lowered in the rear.
So...changed the two shafts in the front of the trans and...put the 196 torque converter on it and the original bell housing (from the 196) and...
AL-Ley-Leu-YA!! IT FIT INTO THE CAR...and every thing lined up nicely..
Everything, that is, except...
The YOKE.
The Yoke from the 196 does not go into the 232's tailshaft.
Seems the 232's yoke did fit the 196's tranny (strange, isn 't it?? Same with the torque convertor..the 232's fit the 196 but not vice versa)...
Any Ideas short of cutting and inventing a new driveshift with a larger Yoke??
What Yoke will fit this which has a small Universal Joint but splines which fit the 232 transmission??
Anyone Know?? Or does this monster not exist??
And..if anyone knows...does anyone have one?? (the SmallUJoint Yoke which fits 232 splines, that is)
Thanks,
Jerijan
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:56:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC Progress
To: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0611280955250.6716@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, Mark Price wrote:
> If we're talking six cylinders the Ford units work backwards from the AMC six.
> Great for vacuum retard! Er, nevermind!
D'OH! CW, CCW, oh what's the difference...
(But if I ground a cam to make the motor run the other way... oh
never mind.)
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:27:17 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Continuing Saga of Doc the Jeep, Part II.5
To: <n9viw@xxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B68EF2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Comp Cams cam I have lists its duration as 252
deg. If the stock cam had MORE duration, why would they advertise this
cam as having increased torque and power from the stock unit? It also
makes me wonder what the profile of the stock 4.2 cam used in '82 was,
and whether I would have been better off to have kept it and simply
degreed it myself rather than buying a new cam when I rebuilt the
engine?
------------------------
You were likely better off to replace the cam. Lobe centers, lift, and
overlap may be different. The duration just tells you how long the valve
stay open from when it opens until it closes. Some cams have the lobe
centers further apart than others, which increases overlap. You have to
compare all the specs -- just one being different could make a
noticeable change in engine performance. You know, like 4* of timing...
;>
4* is less than one tooth on the gears, that's why the offset key. On a
Corvair flat six one tooth is 14*, on most engines it's 16* (according
to a Hot Rod tech article, so that probably means most big 3 V-8s). The
AMC six should be in the 12-18 degree range per tooth, don't have
anything hand to check that with, and I'm not sure that info is in the
TSM. Knowing that it's 12*+ should help though!
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 10, Issue 57
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