AMC-List Digest, Vol 10, Issue 44
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 10, Issue 44
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- Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:27:16 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. odb I/odb II readers (d stohler)
2. Re: Trans for 72 232 six (AW4 w/o EFI)
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
3. Re: Trans for 72 232 six (Jim Blair)
4. Re: Trans for 72 232 six (Sandwich Maker)
5. Re: Starter alignment (Jim Blair)
6. Re: NP-129 in Michigan (Jim Blair)
7. 4L swap site (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
8. Re: Trans for 72 232 six (manual controller for AW4)
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
9. Re: Trans for 72 232 six (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
10. Re: 87 360 carb (Joe)
11. Re: Trans for 72 232 six (AW4 w/o EFI) (Spro)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 05:12:16 -0800 (PST)
From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] odb I/odb II readers
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061122131216.87406.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
i have an AutoXray EZread 2000. it reads odb 1 and odb 2 computers. most anything built since 96, and american cars with odb 1. (or american subsidaries with american odb 1) it cost me about $400 when i bought it, but now i think they are like 200 or so. they work great. you can get the pc kit for them. comes with an upgrade disk. pop the disk in, hook the cable from laptop to reader, update reader. you can download updates from the web also after you get the cable. it does freez frame data, and all that good stuff. i work on lots of peoples cars, so it was justifiable to buy it. if your only going to use it once or twice, thats alot of money. im wishing i could upgrade it to the EZread 6000. that one, you get the pc link cable, and you can actually record sensor data, and print it out in graphs. like if you think you got an o2 sensor going bad, and want to record its actions or you got an intermitten problem. good thing about the auto xray, you can trade in your old
scanner for the newer one. i just havent gotten around to doing it yet. anyway, hope this helps out.
dave stohler
---------------------------------
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:35:31 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six (AW4 w/o EFI)
To: "Mark Price" <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: farna@xxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B3618E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mark, it doesn't take much to get an AW4 working with a stand-alone
controller (TC from now on). The stand alone controller was used from
87-95. In 96 the OBDII controller has the trans controller integrated
with it.
The TC only uses one input from the EFI system -- the throttle position
sensor (TPS). The Renix system (87-90) uses a "piggyback" TPS -- one
unit on top of the other -- one for the engine computer and one for the
TC. The 91-95 models I believe use the same TPS. I assume there's some
diodes somewhere to prevent signal feedback, but the TC may use a
different type signal (resistance range) on the 87-90 systems.
The wiring harness looks integrated, but it really isn't. My car started
out with a manual trans. When I switched to an auto I didn't swap wiring
harnesses. Instead, I took an auto trans harness apart in the area that
the auto trans connectors were. For some stupid reason the engineers
integrated the harness, but only the power and ground wires are spliced
in (I think the ground may not be, don't recall if it's on the block
connector with other wires or has it's own connector now). I simply
unraveled the wires after taking the harness cover off and separated
them from the main harness. I had to cut a few to get them out -- don't
know why the heck they're so twisted in -- then splice them. If the
harness wasn't so twisted up it could have been easily separated. After
the harness is separated you just have to provide switched power to the
controller and rig the TPS to your carb or throttle body.
The only other problem is the flex plate. You need to run an AW4
flexplate and matching 4.0L starter. The TF flexplate MIGHT work if
redrilled, but I'm not sure. I know there can be problems using an AW4
flexplate with a TF converter. You have to make sure the converter isn't
pushed into the trans to far or you'll burn up the front pump. Keleigh
Hardy found that out the hard way, IIRC! The solution is to shorten the
"ears" on the hub or thin the threaded mounting lugs on the converter.
Or just use the correct flexplate and starter -- neither of which are
hard to find in salvage yards now.
Well, there's a bigger problem I suppose -- finding a 2WD AW4 in a Jeep.
Not hard to do in the south, but in northern parts of the country
(including Pacific NW -- anywhere there's a reasonable amount of snow)
they are pretty hard to find. But there may be a solution! The AW4 is
also known as the A340 in Toyotas, but it's the same trans. The main
trans body should interchange on the Jeep bell housing. The only
difference I've seen is that some of the Toyotas (specifically the
Supra) use an electronic servo in place of the TV cable. From what I saw
the servo mounts in the same location as the cable, and should be
replaceable with a cable. The valve body is calibrated differently, but
valve bodies will interchange. The only drawback here is you'd likely
need to buy a Jeep 4x4 trans and a Toyota 2WD trans (trucks and SUVs,
Supra and others rear drive cars with the I-6 or V-6) for all the parts.
If the servo can indeed simply be replaced with a cable then you just
need the Jeep flexplate and bell. I'd use the converter that goes with
the trans, especially if the trans and/or converter are used.
MV Automatics in Australia supposedly has a shift kit available for the
AW4/A340. There's a couple places that will alter your valve body if you
send it to them in the states, but they won't sell a kit and charge
dearly for it ($575!!). I can see that for a racing trans, but a mild
improvement can be made by changing springs and possibly drilling the
plate between the valve body halves. You just have to know what you're
doing, and no one will tell! This would make the trans suitable for mild
360 V-8s.
I found a site where a modified A340 is used behind a Lexus V-8 that
makes 218 hp/206 lb-ft AT THE REAR WHEELS on a dyno (that's about
280-300 hp at the crank -- http://v8cressida.com/). That's enough to
push the near 3461# car (approximate -- don't know how he arrived at
that figure) to 13.6 seconds @ 105.8 mph in the quarter and 0-10 time of
5.2 seconds -- with photos of a G-tech screen to prove it. Still don't
think I'd stick it behind anything more than a mild 360 in a light car
though. Would be perfect for a near stock 360 in a Hornet/Gremlin et.
al. though!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Price [mailto:markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:53 PM
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six
For some reason the AW4 always slips my mind!
If I was doing an automatic swap I would indeed use it.
They are, as far as I'm concerend, One of the most reliable automatic
trans out there. It's not at all unusual to see one pass 200K without a
whimper. They have a nice gear spread and work well too.
Anyone put one behind a non EFI six yet? Just curious of what it
would take to get the trans controller up and working. I know The manual
controllers like Franks can be built or bought, but an true automatic
function would be more fitting.
I neverless still have the free 73 904 should anyone want it :]
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- "Swygert wrote:
> Butch, note that you can use ANY 1972-2006 AMC six cylinder
transmission
> as long as you use the flexplate and torque conveter made for that
> trans. That includes the AW-4 used behind the 4.0L and lock-up
converter
> transmissions. You must use a lock-up converter with a lock-up
> transmission unless the trans is internally modified though.
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:01:45 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F21E0E2F1DB55A78C7AB0D6ACE30@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
One from a 360 or 304 V8 pre '72 should work.
From: "L. D. Lyons" <ldlyons@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <007101c70d93$b27c9090$6401a8c0@lyonsamd2000xp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I am buying 232 engine out of 72 Gremlin to put in my 64
American, I will be needing an Automatic trans in good condition
for this 232 engine. can anyone help me.
Butch Lyons
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:09:51 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200611221609.kAMG9pH15198@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" One from a 360 or 304 V8 pre '72 should work.
i pointed out all he needs is the converter housing and flexplate from
a 2bbl 290/304 aluminum warner [bw40?]. the flexplate needs to be
rebalanced, but you're going the easy way from unbalanced to neutral.
the '72 mill would then bolt up to his present tranny.
" From: "L. D. Lyons" <ldlyons@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" I am buying 232 engine out of 72 Gremlin to put in my 64
" American, I will be needing an Automatic trans in good condition
" for this 232 engine. can anyone help me.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:13:42 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Starter alignment
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY110-F24D5F3707CF00D2AE2E513ACE30@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Did you put the tin plate between the trans and motor? If not, you will need
to make a spacer that thickness to push the starter back from the flywheel.
I'd also make sure the rebuilt has the correct tooth count on the starter
drive. (Some shops don't notice the extra/short 1 tooth)
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 08:19:23 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] NP-129 in Michigan
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY110-F3C1549EA5767CD875B986ACE30@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
A: If it does have a NP129 and not a NP229 then someone swapped that in from
an Eagle. (the difference is no low range) If it's a NP219, then it's
'80/early '82 Wagoneer limited or Cherokee and that is a 4x4 full time case
(no 2wd position)
From: "Spro" <msproviero@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] NP-129 in Michigan
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001b01c70c53$369c99c0$6401a8c0@deathstar>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I will give it away to the first person that wants it (and has a
plan to retrieve it). From an 84?
Grand Wagoneer, I believe. I'll get a few pictures, including a
picture of the ID tag and post a
link to them. If anyone is interested, please contact me
off-list. I'm in Highland, MI - northwest
Detroit suburbs.
Again, this is a freebie.
-Spro
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:37:51 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 4L swap site
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B361DF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
For those interested in a 4.0L swap into a six cylinder (199/232/258)
AMC car (or Jeep), ou might find this site of high interest:
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/4lswap/
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:41:55 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six (manual controller for
AW4)
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B361E2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To make a totally manual controller for the AW4 you just need a few
things:
1. the pin-out for the controller connector (I have this for the
stand-alone controller, if you need it contact me!).
2. the solenoid shift sequence (#1 on #2 off is 1st, both on 2nd, #1 off
#2 on 3rd, both off 4th).
3. switches -- you can go one of two ways, use a pair of toggle switches
for the solenoids (the hard way, you can miss a shift!) OR use a four
position rotary switch and a couple diodes. You don't have to have a
switch for the lock-up converter if using a Jeep valve body. Just
connect power to the lock-up pin and leave it. The Jeep valve body locks
up the converter immediately after shifting gears, but does not lock up
in first. Just remember to shift to first when coming to a stop. The
trans only brakes in the top two gears (2-3 in drive, 3-4 in OD), so you
can shift down to first from 80 mph with no problem at all -- you just
have to rev the heck out of the engine to engage the trans. So you want
to keep it in a gear close to your speed in case you have to move fast.
I have a toggle for the converter lock-up, but leave it on nearly all
the time. For street driving that's the preferred way -- less wear and
tar on the trans, less heat in the fluid, and better mileage. No real
advantage in acceleration under normal driving, but you can run a little
more rpm without the lock-up if drag racing. If you try to come to a
stop in anything but first gear you'll feel the shudder -- just as if
trying to stop a manual trans car without pushing in the clutch. In that
case quickly switch to first.
4. A box to hold the switch, fuse for the power wire, and four lengths
of 16 gauge wire.
Once the switch is wired I just tinned the ends of the wire and inserted
them into the proper holes on the female connector (trans side, of
course). You can buy a totally manual controller from IPT
(http://www.importperformancetrans.com/toyotaauto.shtml#main) for $479,
or a switchable controller (manual or use computer) for $569. I'll make
you one for $100, ready to install, shipping paid ;>. Their's uses push
buttons, so it's easy to miss a shift (push the wrong button). Mine is a
rotary switch -- easy to know where you are by feel! It's not that hard
to make a switchable controller, but on the newer OBDII (and possibly
OBDI) models switching will cause a trouble light to come on and code to
be stored. On the Renix system it's not a problem. Better yet, here's
the controller I wanted to make, but someone beat me to it! It uses
momentary switches to shift up and down, so can be used with steering
wheel buttons (http://awshifting.com/index.html). It's also a reasonable
$130, but you need to supply a couple toggle and momentary switches, and
LEDs for gear indication.
Because you can miss a shift or have to take your eyes off the road to
know what gear you're in I really like my rotary switch better. It's
easy to use IF you have a console with arm rest (position switch where
you hand naturally lies on it) and you can easily tell what gear you're
in by feel (knob has a pointer on it). I do it naturally now! The
up/down switch method works better if you want to mount switches on the
gear shift handle or steering wheel. I'd also mount four LEDs on top of
the dash or on the instrument cluster so you know what gear you're in
though. I can switch gears faster with the rotary switch, and actually
start off in any gear. There are advantages/disadvantages to both. I
find the rotary the best arrangement, but haven't tried the up/down two
button deal. I think the chance of not knowing what gear you're in or
accidentally pressing a button is a big disadvantage though. No, it's
not just because I "invented" the rotary switch!! I have no problem
dropping my own stuff if I find something better!
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:54:17 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01B361EB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Holy crap, my spreadsheet says very nice things about those
gear ratios in my 258 Hornet, 2.73 axle. The 3rd-gear column
is what I see now in top gear on the A904 I have.
First is lower (2.8 vs 2.54) too, second, third the same. My
care behaves fine in 2, 3, but 1st is a little steep; 2.8 would
be a big improvement!"
----------------------
What the spreadsheet isn't telling you is that the AW4 has a 1.2:1
torque converter torque multiplication instead of the roughly 3:1 of the
TorqueFlite converter. This means the AW4 needs to be geared more like a
manual transmission than a US auto.
I tried running a 3.08 gear in mine with the torquey 4.6L stroker and
AW4. It cruised at 70-75, but stressed the engine enough that gas
mileage dropped considerably compared to the T-96 w/)D and 3.31 rear
gears. Going to a 3.55 gear improved performance and mileage. I dropped
about 4 mpg with the 3.08, gained 2 mpg back with the 3.55. I think the
3.31 gears are probably the best mileage gears for my combo, but the
3.55 is a good compromise.
I'm running a 205/70R15 (about 26.5" diameter) tire, so your shorter
tires help out on the gear ratio. Looks like you're running 1800 rpm @
66 -- below that just don't run OD. It should be okay if it takes off
fine, but I'm willing to bet it won't take off quite as good as the TF
even though the AW4 has a bit lower first gear. I'm thinking that with
the shoarter tires and lighter car 3.08s would work well, but the 2.73
will probably be a bit high. The AW4 converter won't slip and allow the
rpm that the TF converter does before the car starts moving, so first
could end up feeling like a lot less gear than you have now. Won't hurt
to try, but you might want to line up a lower geared axle first. Stock
Jeep Cherokee 4.0L stick axle is 3.08, so with deep offset wheels you
could use that.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:23:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe <jgray_55@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 87 360 carb
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Jgraqy_55@xxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <715801.7593.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Todd. Yes it is the engine that i have for sale. Ran
great in the 87 Grand Wagoneer. The guy i bought the
engine,trans,transfer case from kept the carb. It had
a 600 Edelbrock on it when i test drove it. I was
going to use it in my Gremlin V8 conversion until the
machine shop finished the 401 machine,head
port,balance, port match intake...etc work.BUT they
got it done WAYYY WAYYY faster than originally
promised. Joe
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:27:09 -0500
From: "Spro" <msproviero@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six (AW4 w/o EFI)
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000c01c70e9e$7f21ed60$6401a8c0@deathstar>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In light of the discussion, I thought you guys might find this site interesting:
http://awshifting.com/
I would look towards MJ's for 2wd AW4's. I also have a source here in MI for the A340 that is rated
higher than the Jeep AW4 for $400 NEW (maybe less). XJ wheelers here use them behind strokers. I
bought one with the intention of installing into my XJ, but figured out that the trans wasn't my
problem. I sold it to another XJ wheeler with a 99 (I think) and we determined that this trans
would be for the non-OBDII, as we found differences in the housings on 97-up XJ's. We still used it
in his XJ, but it required mixing and matching parts from each trans. The isn't a new one available
from this source for the later XJ's. Sounds like the A340 that is available is the one you would
want, anyway.
-Spro
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Swygert, Francis G
MSgt 436 CES/CECM
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:36 AM
To: Mark Price; mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: farna@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 72 232 six (AW4 w/o EFI)
Well, there's a bigger problem I suppose -- finding a 2WD AW4 in a Jeep.
Not hard to do in the south, but in northern parts of the country
(including Pacific NW -- anywhere there's a reasonable amount of snow)
they are pretty hard to find. But there may be a solution! The AW4 is
also known as the A340 in Toyotas, but it's the same trans. The main
trans body should interchange on the Jeep bell housing. The only
difference I've seen is that some of the Toyotas (specifically the
Supra) use an electronic servo in place of the TV cable. From what I saw
the servo mounts in the same location as the cable, and should be
replaceable with a cable. The valve body is calibrated differently, but
valve bodies will interchange. The only drawback here is you'd likely
need to buy a Jeep 4x4 trans and a Toyota 2WD trans (trucks and SUVs,
Supra and others rear drive cars with the I-6 or V-6) for all the parts.
If the servo can indeed simply be replaced with a cable then you just
need the Jeep flexplate and bell. I'd use the converter that goes with
the trans, especially if the trans and/or converter are used.
MV Automatics in Australia supposedly has a shift kit available for the
AW4/A340. There's a couple places that will alter your valve body if you
send it to them in the states, but they won't sell a kit and charge
dearly for it ($575!!). I can see that for a racing trans, but a mild
improvement can be made by changing springs and possibly drilling the
plate between the valve body halves. You just have to know what you're
doing, and no one will tell! This would make the trans suitable for mild
360 V-8s.
I found a site where a modified A340 is used behind a Lexus V-8 that
makes 218 hp/206 lb-ft AT THE REAR WHEELS on a dyno (that's about
280-300 hp at the crank -- http://v8cressida.com/). That's enough to
push the near 3461# car (approximate -- don't know how he arrived at
that figure) to 13.6 seconds @ 105.8 mph in the quarter and 0-10 time of
5.2 seconds -- with photos of a G-tech screen to prove it. Still don't
think I'd stick it behind anything more than a mild 360 in a light car
though. Would be perfect for a near stock 360 in a Hornet/Gremlin et.
al. though!!
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 10, Issue 44
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