AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 67
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 67
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- Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:00:31 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. overdrive (d stohler)
2. Re: T-14 Overdrive (Mark Price)
3. Re: Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle) (Sandwich Maker)
4. 2007 AMC Meets (Bill Strobel)
5. Power Steering (Don Johnson)
6. Re: T-96/T-14 OD swap (Andy)
7. Re: Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle)
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
8. Re: Fact (VAM Lerma) (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
9. Re: Duraspark distributor woes (258 six) (Jim Blair)
10. Re: Duraspark distributor woes (258 six) (Jim Blair)
11. Re: T-96/T-14 OD swap (Sandwich Maker)
12. Re: Duraspark distributor woes (258 six) (Sandwich Maker)
13. Re: Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle) (Tom Jennings)
14. Re: Duraspark distributor woes (258 six) (Tom Jennings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] overdrive
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061026124659.51737.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
when i get home i can get measurements. i was going to put it in when i was home on leave, but from the front face, where it mounts to the bellhousing, to the back of the torqu tube mount, was 2" to long, and also the bolt patern on the front of the tranny to the bellhousing was about 1.5" wider than the t96 i have now. i didnt measure the input shaft length after i discovered it wouldnt work with the parts i have now. give me about another week and a half to 2 weeks, and i can get pics and measurements.
---------------------------------
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 7:30:03 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] T-14 Overdrive
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <5012620.1161873003379.JavaMail.root@web11>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks for pointing the need for the 3.31 or steeper axle with OD.
You have to be carefull not to overdo, er, under gear the car!
I run a 3.31 with T-5 and about a .8 overdrive right now. [255/60/15 tires] So figuring this ends up geared about the same as a 3.08 normal tired car that puts it at about a 2.46 final drive.
It does real well with this combo.
When I put the new T5 with .64 overdrive in I intend to move up to an S-10 two wheel drive, disc brake rear axle with 3.42 ratio. I think I may end up under egared though as this will end up at about 2.04 final in OD. Maybe it will work with torque of the EFI 4.0L, but now that I do the numbers I may have to look for a steeper geared axle. The two wheels drive S-10 axles measure in about 54 3/8" this is about 2" narrower then the stock American axle. I'll probably run spacers for the time being, but as I run a wheel with 4 1/4" switching to a 3 1/4" backspace wheel at a later date will likely happen as they are a standard aftermarket wheel at that offset.
If anyone needs a 3.31 American axle, I should have two coming up for sale.
The one in the car has a sslightly turned axle tube, but works fine, it is twingrip and complete. The spare is an open axle from a 199 auto car, had 43K on it it is open and will need brakes I assume as it has sat for a while now.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Bob Hodson <rhodsonscrambler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I have a 68 American that I converted from T-96 to T-14 with overdrive.
> I did the
> conversion back in 1980 and kept the 3.08 gears. I had to use the
> linkage for the
> T-96 and readjust the shifter. I had to modify the transmission support
> and the mount was about an inch further back. I was not to impressed
> with the mpg as when
> there is a 30% reduction, the rear end equates out to a 2.16. With
> 1-bbl, points and
> bias belted tires the mileage was not what I expected.
> Today, it is a different story. The 199 now as a 2-bbl carb, motorcraft
> electronic
> igination, radi tires and the rear end is now a 3.31. With a 30%
> reduction, the rear
> end equates out to a 2.32. What difference this made. I drove this 68
> White American
> to the NAMDRA meet this past Sept and average 23 MGP driving around 65
> mph.
> We just purchased a new 2006 Caravan and it gets 23mpg on the highway.
> I think that
> 23 mpg on a 68 199 with 172000 miles with not rebuilt is pretty damn
> good.
>
>
>
> =============================================================
> Posted by wixList Archiver -- http://www.amxfiles.com/wixlist
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:46:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle)
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610261446.k9QEkfh24367@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" A: I figured the stock XJ with rear disc brake cables would fit.
when did the xj have rear disks? afaik only the zj, wj, and tj
rubicon have had them. dunno about the liberty.
" From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
"
" " From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
" "
" " A: I was looking at either a Grand Cherokee D35 ebrake and disc brake
" " assembly (shoes inside the "drum" of the rotor) or 8.8" Ford axle with disc
" " brakes (common XJ conversion)
"
" will the zj e-brake cables work on an xj with the zj disks? xj cables
" won't without mickeymousing as the cable ends are different.
" ________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Strobel <theamcguy@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 2007 AMC Meets
To: List AMC <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20061026152237.19232.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Starting to look at AMC Meets for 2007. AMO's meet in
Denver is just too far for me. Looking for some
regional meets on the East Coast. Any one have any
info on next years meets? Thank you,
Bill Strobel
Independent Towing
Fayetteville NC
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:43:45 -0400
From: Don Johnson <donjohnson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Power Steering
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <003001c6f915$85c61ae0$6400a8c0@DONS>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Some time ago, I added power steering to my 70 AMX, primarily, so my wife could park it.
I got the pump, steering box and all the other parts and pieces from a 70 Javelin and the system works well, however, I've never been very happy with the "feel" of the steering. It seems over boosted, if that is the correct term.
>From reading the list, I decided to change the pump, and bought a setup from a later model. This one has the smaller pump and supposedly, better road feel.
Can someone send me a picture of the newer pump mounted on a V8? I would prefer the exploded view out of a newer manual. I can figure out the main mount, but there are some smaller pieces that came with the pump and I'm not sure where they mount.
Great forum and thanks for any help you can give.
Don
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:51:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Andy <raysinvegas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] T-96/T-14 OD swap
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<28972096.1161877908997.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Bob, thanks for the info. Was the original T-96 a NON OD? All the info I've seen say that the T-96-OD is the same length as the T-14-OD. If so, what drive shaft did you use? How did you modify the tranny crossmember?Thanks for your help, I'm going to do this swap in the next year.
Andy Ray
64 440H (2)
68 Javelin SST 343 4bbl
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:59:07 -0400
>From: Bob Hodson <rhodsonscrambler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [AMC-List] T-14 Overdrive
>To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>Message-ID:
> <ADVANCES62XCpU6q5ij00004c73@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>I have a 68 American that I converted from T-96 to T-14 with overdrive.
>I did the
>conversion back in 1980 and kept the 3.08 gears. I had to use the
>linkage for the
>T-96 and readjust the shifter. I had to modify the transmission support
>and the mount was about an inch further back. I was not to impressed
>with the mpg as when
>there is a 30% reduction, the rear end equates out to a 2.16. With
>1-bbl, points and
>bias belted tires the mileage was not what I expected.
>Today, it is a different story. The 199 now as a 2-bbl carb, motorcraft
>electronic
>igination, radi tires and the rear end is now a 3.31. With a 30%
>reduction, the rear
>end equates out to a 2.32. What difference this made. I drove this 68
>White American
>to the NAMDRA meet this past Sept and average 23 MGP driving around 65
>mph.
>We just purchased a new 2006 Caravan and it gets 23mpg on the highway.
>I think that
>23 mpg on a 68 199 with 172000 miles with not rebuilt is pretty damn
>good.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:21:55 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle)
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A102A7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"While searching for truckarm info I stumbled on clamp on rear caliper
mounts! They wrap arouund the rear axle tube in two pieces and bolt
together, then use waht appears to be a 3/8" bolt drilled to actually
enter the axle tube to stop rotation. I'd addsome weld after finishing
the install to be sure, but it sure looks like an easy setup to allow
for aligning things before welding!
Does anyone know what GM calipers I would look for to gain an ebrake???
and
be not to god awfull expensive!"
------------------------
Make that a 3/8" FINE THREAD bolt, 1/2" long. That's what AMC used to
hold the spring seats on the torque tube axle tubes. I had raised
eyebrows when I first read "clamp on rear caliper mounts", but with one
or two bolts in the tube it should work well.
You need any GM rear caliper from a car that had rear disc brakes.
Cadillac El Dorados and Sevilles (older ones) are a good source in the
U-pick places, as they are often overlooked but use the same caliper as
Camaros and Firebirds. As for "not expensive"... same caliper, same
price for a rebuild.
Since these calipers mount the same as fronts, you can use front
calipers to get rear discs on the cheap. That leaves you with devising
other means for a park brake. You can get pinion mount setups that use a
small manual caliper. The same caliper is used on go-carts and such, and
is two piece. It can be mounted to clamp on the main rotor (or use two)
with a spacer made for the rotor thickness. That's what I intend to do
-- eventually (maybe?). No inspection requiring an emergency or park
brake, and I have an auto trans. Of course I know how to park with a
manual too, only used a park brake with a manual when I wanted to leave
it running in neutral. Park works fine for autos! I have a set of steel
chocks I keep in the wagon just in case, but have only used them when
changing a back tire on a hill.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:57:31 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fact (VAM Lerma)
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A102D5@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Had AMC proffered it to us, Lerma would have been another LeBaron GTS:
just
another smart car that N. Americans were too dumb to want to own.
*And if you know -all- your AMC history, you know why it was cancelled.
How 'bout you tell us?"
----------------------------------
The Lerma was a "cut-n-paste" car made up in Mexico by VAM. They took a
Concord body, cut it off at the back, and welded a cut off Spirit rear
end to it. The execs there proud of their creation, and took one to
Kenosha. Kenosha wasn't impressed. It would be to costly to do it the
way the Mexicans did due to labor, and waste a lot of material. If done
at the body plant, a new rear floor and quarters would have to be made
since the Spirit components wouldn't fit unaltered. This would have
required new dies.
I'm certain VAM was altering the parts then assembling bodies, not
cutting whole or partially assembled bodies. That would be to
wasteful/costly for anyone, with the exception of a prototype or two.
The Lerma was introduced in 1981, so had to be shown to AMC officials in
early 1980 at best. I doubt AMC was interested in another variant of
their 10 year old body -- they were pushing for something more up to
date by dealing with Renault.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:55:23 -0700
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Duraspark distributor woes (258 six)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F11B18D315074959F2A0F93AC070@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
The vacuum advance would be your extra degrees for "total"
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Duraspark distributor woes (258 six)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610252124360.17006@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; FORMAT=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006, Jim Blair wrote:
>A: The Renix plug is TR5 in NGK and HO is TR5-5 (I wasn't
paying attention
>when I got mine because I looked up for '93 Grand Cherokee,
which is the motor
>now in my '84 J10 awaiting wiring to get done)
Tomorrow I'll pull a plug to verify the heat range; I forget
what I stuck in there. They're those !@## new-fangled baby plugs
(1983).
To recap, I've got a 20-degree mechanical advance unit, static
timing set to 8 degrees, vacuum advance disconnected. Running
high-test gas it does not ping.
I measured 30 degrees total advance with my timing light, so
measurement agrees with the sum of the components (2 degree
error, probably in the markings on the timing light knob).
With 36 - 38 recommended, 30 is a bit short for maximum advance,
and this is on high test. I thought this engine was dead stock,
but I suppose it could have high-comp pistons (oh woe is me). (I
bought the shortblock from someone's abandoned Jeep project.)
So where's that 6 degrees? I'm hoping spread between too-hot
plugs, coolant temp lowering, richer jetting.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:58:18 -0700
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Duraspark distributor woes (258 six)
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F86B62FA039F8973BFCD06AC070@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
PS: Don't forget AMC/Jeep changed the timing of the cam through the chain
and gears. (maybe the crank gear was installed backwards for more advanced
cam timing?) When I did the 3 keyway setup on my '66 Fairlane's 289, I tried
the advanced spot and got great rubber burning with major ping and the power
band died at 2,500 RPM!
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:09:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] T-96/T-14 OD swap
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610261709.k9QH9ea25795@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: Andy <raysinvegas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" Hi Bob, thanks for the info. Was the original T-96 a NON OD? All the
" info I've seen say that the T-96-OD is the same length as the T-14-OD.
" If so, what drive shaft did you use? How did you modify the tranny
" crossmember? Thanks for your help, I'm going to do this swap in the
" next year.
some years ago i was offered a t14-o/d for $150. stupidly i passed on
it... but the seller told me it's exactly the same length as my then
t96, non-o/d. same output spline also, a direct swap he said.
so it sounds like they're all the same length, except for the non-o/d
t14 which is ~2" shorter.
then, if you're putting a t14-o/d into a t14 car, you need the
driveshaft from a t96 car - '67-9 199s, '66/early-'68 232s. and you
could surely sell your present t14 and driveshaft to someone now
running a t96. if they swap in a non-big-nut rear end, the combo
would fit '64-6 american sixes too.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:17:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Duraspark distributor woes (258 six)
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610261717.k9QHHuQ25897@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
"
" PS: Don't forget AMC/Jeep changed the timing of the cam through the chain
" and gears. (maybe the crank gear was installed backwards for more advanced
" cam timing?) When I did the 3 keyway setup on my '66 Fairlane's 289, I tried
" the advanced spot and got great rubber burning with major ping and the power
" band died at 2,500 RPM!
advancing and retarding the cam are standard racer ways of moving the
powerband down or up the rpm range, and likewise an indicator of
whether you'd run better with a smaller or larger cam.
i recall hearing that when they were active in scca showroom stock,
the amc racers retarded the late '70s 2bbl cam 13*.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610261032190.17006@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
> Make that a 3/8" FINE THREAD bolt, 1/2" long. That's what AMC used to
> hold the spring seats on the torque tube axle tubes. I had raised
> eyebrows when I first read "clamp on rear caliper mounts", but with one
> or two bolts in the tube it should work well.
The 3/8" bolt holding the spring seat to the axle tube,
on torque-tube cars, is under ZERO force; axle rotation is
stopped by the torque tube and the wishbones. All of the force
is vertical (spring), the bolt just locates it fore/aft.
But on the clamp-on disk brake setup Mark points out, the
brakes are trying to rotate that bracket on the axle tube;
that's a lot of force. I think the clamp on system is brilliant
though, it lets you get everything perfectly aligned, adjusted,
tested, before welding on. A bolt as pin, into the axle tube,
probably works, but seems long-term scary to me. Suspension
parts get soaked in water and crud, take a lot of forces,
and are largely ignored.
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Duraspark distributor woes (258 six)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610261451140.17006@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, Jim Blair wrote:
> The vacuum advance would be your extra degrees for "total"
Well, yes and no, from what I can tell.
Concerning only wide-open-throttle, first:
I know I'm not racing, though WOT simulates it a bit; zero
vacuum, timing is static+mechanical. I believe under this
circumstance I should be able to run 36 - 38 degrees total
advance (for the six).
Racing, where a lot of time is spent at WOT, there's often no
vacuum advance unit, economy isn't a concern.
Back to the actual highway -- at cruise on the flat and level,
vacuum is relatively high, therefore the mixture is rarefied,
which burns somewhat like "lean", more advance -- over the
maximum WOT value -- is recommended for economy, because the
rarefied charge burns slower and needs more ignition lead time.
At least this is what I've figured out by reading (sometimes,
actual books :-)
But assuming you are right, it means the cruising vacuum --
whatever it would be, depending on engine size, cruise speed,
axle and tire, altitude, etc -- should create the right amount
of advance, in my particular case 6 - 8 degrees advance.
I can make a chart of advance vs. in hg with my vacuum gauge,
in the car. I will do that this weekend.
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 67
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