AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 61
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 61
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- Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:51:54 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Overdrive Options? (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
2. Re: Fresh Cherries RC Gremlin/Pacer
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
3. Re: Pulling an Axle (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
4. Re: OVERDRIVE OPTIONS (Sandwich Maker)
5. Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle)
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
6. Re: AMBASSADORS (now trucks) (Sandwich Maker)
7. Seven character serial numbers still used, 66-70s!!
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
8. my 62 classic project (d stohler)
9. Re: To The Recovering Mark Price (Mark Price)
10. Re: my 62 classic project (rear suspension for torque tube
car) (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
11. Tachometer (Nolanatcamelot@xxxxxxx)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:25:39 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Overdrive Options?
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A0F705@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
" However it's for a torque-tube car, Andrew may know if the
" output shaft is 100% identical to the open T96, and if only
" the tailshaft housing would swap on.
And
" Well I have both a t96 with O/D sitting on my slab
" here at home and a t-14 from my 76 Gremlin sitting in
" the garage. I'll try to look at both pieces tonight
" and let you know if I think the tailshaft from the
" T-14 would swap onto the rear of the T96/OD.
i'll bet this won't work. these trannies do not have separate
mainshafts and tailshafts, so you'd need to look for a t14 o/d
mainshaft. the o/d adapters are probably different lengths too, as i
was told a t14-o/d was the same length overall as a t96. and the t14
is not closely related to the t96; it looks much more like a t86 -
6-bolt top cover, etc.
i believe the o/d unit tailshaft is the same, and between open and tt
cars, with only the housing different.
----------------------
1. Torque tube or not doesn't matter -- the trans and rear seal are the
same. Open drive cars had a small seal adapter that drives into the
output shaft surround on a short tailshaft housing. The OD cars have an
adapter with a flange for the tube that also carries the seal. The
splines are the same and the flange won't interfere with the driveshaft,
so just leave it on. The flange should fit in the trans tunnel, but will
be close in the back. If it gets in the way a sawz-all or hack saw will
take care of the problem, it just won't be any good for a TT car
anymore.
2. The only difference in Borg-Warner OD units between transmissions is
the 1"-1.5" adapter between the trans and OD unit. OD equipped
transmissions have a short output shaft similar to a 4x4 trans (though
not the same -- could be on older ones that used BW transfer cases, but
I suspect not). So you can't bolt the OD unit to a standard three speed
without the correct adapter and output shaft in the trans. The OD unit
has it's own unique (to AMC) tailshaft housing which is very short. AMC
made the tailshaft housing on the standard trans long so that it and OD
equipped cars (as well as autos) would use the same driveshaft -- at
least in the early sixties. All six cylinder 63 Classics use the same
torque tube and rear axle anyway.
3. It is POSSIBLE to "remote mount" the BW OD unit. That requires making
a front case cover, crossmember, and sleeve to link the trans and OD
together. I've seen it done with a pair of trans yokes back to back with
a U-joint between them. This makes for a short drive shaft and it's a
lot of work though. Not only that, but takes a little machining
knowledge and tools (a good router and drill press with carbide bits are
okay for non-precision work with aluminum, with lots of care!). It's not
advisable since trannys are available.
4. I wouldn't recommend a T-96. The T-96J has slightly larger bearings
and shafts, but was only used by AMC 70-72 or so -- the last use of it.
That's was in Gremlins and Hornets with 232, and it was stressed to the
limit then. In a heavier car I wouldn't put it behind anything more than
a stock 199 1V. I ran one with a 4.0L in my Classic for a while -- the
synchronizer (only between 2 and 3 -- not designed for downshifts into
first except at a stop!) went in about 150 miles, that's the weakest
part in it. The gears held up fine, though I was double clutching to
down shift (only 3-2, remember!) and timing upshifts "just right" or
double clutching then too. Not fun! After 10-12K miles the gear clusters
look like they have 30-35K on them -- they were new when I put the trans
in. At 10-12K miles they shouldn't have shown any wear. I rebuilt the J
model since I had it and thought it would last a while. It did, but
there's no way to strengthen the synchro. With a carbed 232 it will last
a lot longer than with a 4.0L, especially if you know it's a problem and
baby it. But it will eventually go. A T-85 or T-89 from a V-8 car won't
work, the input shaft is to long for the six cylinder bell and the trans
to bell pattern is different. I was going to get a GEN-2/3 AMC V-8 T-10
bell, that's the pattern the T-85/89 trans uses (T-10 is a T-89 with
fourth gear replacing reverse in the main case, reverse in the new
tailshaft housing), and put one of those behind my 4.6L, but couldn't
find one close by.
5. You're limited by the early model six. If you're thinking about
rebuilding later, I'd get a 72 or later 258 or 4.0L from a salvage yard
and use that. Change the transmission with the rebuilt engine and use
what you have for now. The later block will bolt right in where yours
is, just use the mounts off the original. That's the best way to update
a driver. If you want to keep it stock you need the correct trans, of
course. Your 69 has a VIN that gives trans type though, so you can't
just change it and call it "restored" like you can pre 66 models with no
trans type indicator. You can use 1980 or later two piece intake and
exhaust manifolds on a 4.0L head or a 258 head on a 4.0L (and
vice-versa). You can make a spacer between the bolt together intake and
exhaust and put them on a 4.0L. No one has done it yet, but I see no
reason it won't work. The 4.0L intake ports are raised 1/8" 87-90, 1/4"
91-06 from the 258. Should work with a corresponding spacer. The 4.0L
head flows better though the ports are smaller (better shape/position),
and is a popular upgrade among Jeepers with still good 258s. Lots of
options here! The 4.0L block has no provision for a mechanical fuel
pump, so you would have to use an electric with a carb.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:28:14 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fresh Cherries RC Gremlin/Pacer
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A0F70E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I saw them too. My wife wanted me to buy one, but I declined. The "dub"
look just isn't "my cup of tea". If you like it, that's your
prerogative! If it was a little more stock looking, at least in tire
size, I'd have got one. Cheap RCs aren't easy to change the tires/wheels
on. If they discount them to half price after Christmas I might get one
anyway...
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:49:20 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Pulling an Axle
To: <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A0F735@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My back is a bit sore now, some Ditz in an Infinity SUV (Gawd I hate
that term) and her white poodle ran into the back of my town and country
at an intersection tonight. Says she didn't see it.
As I was not overly happy about the situation I questioned what she
thought that big purple thing was directly in front of her windshield. I
don't thing she like the question.
John.
--------------------------
Well, at least you weren't real happy with the T&C, now you can get a
replacement! "I didn't see it" was what the lady told the cops after she
T-boned and totaled my 63 Classic a few years ago. I wasn't planning on
replacing it though, I was just about perfectly happy with it! I didn't
speak to the people, except to tell her husband (I assume...) he should
"stay the f--- on his side of the t road". That after he asked me if I
knew I ran a red light (which I didn't). Cops knew better too, and it
all worked out in the end. Funny thing though, I wasn't really upset
until then. I built the car to drive and knew all along that accidents
will happen. It's not "if" when you drive a lot, it's "when"!! I only
got upset (and I knew it was totaled as the rear end was sailing through
the air as the car spun around, before it hit the ground and came to
rest!) when the guy acted like he wanted to blame the accident on me,
and I knew better! I left a note on a guys windshield when my car rolled
into the side of his truck years ago (I was in a hurry and didn't put it
in park... duh!!). Could have easily drove off and said nothing, but
didn't. Would have been ticked if someone did that to me!! Treat others
as you want to be treated -- not as you think/know they're going to
treat you anyway!!
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:11:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] OVERDRIVE OPTIONS
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610241311.k9ODB5S06671@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Andy&Tonja&Phoebe Ray" <raysinvegas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" I just installed a T-96 OD TT from a 63 Classic into my 64 American NON-TT.
" I used the same drive shaft. All you have to do is swap the tail shaft
" housings. Same rear seal, same spline, total no-brainer. I am told that the
" T-14 OD is exactly the same length overall as the T-96 OD. Go to the AMC
" forum.NET and look through the Transmission postings for this swap. I think
" there may be a T-14 OD in Colorado. More than one person replied saying
" there was one available. This is your easiest swap. Don't buy a T-96.
" They're crap. I just put my 4th one in 12 months. Let us know how you make
" out!
all good things to know! but one additional point - the non-od t14 is
~2" shorter than the t96 or [i believe] the od setups. but there must
be plenty of '67-9 american owners out there [199s mostly, early 232s]
who'd love to trade their t96 setup for a non-od t14, and their
driveshaft would be the right length for your new od setup.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:38:52 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Rear disc brakes (was: pulling an axle)
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A0F726@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A: I'm about to find out about some of this stuff. I just sold a
customer
some ZJ rear disc brakes today and found out that there was a '93/94
only
rear disc brake version. The rest were the same '95 thru '98.
I'd like to get a Model 20 (from a Comanche) soon to put under my
truck
(hopefully while I do the AW4 from BA 10/5 swap) so I can do a rear disc
brake conversion. I don't want to waste the money on my current D35.
-------------
The easy way for rear disc brakes on any AMC is to use the rotors from a
4x4 XJ Cherokee (or Eagle -- and I think the 2WD XJ uses the same as
well) and weld-on GM caliper brackets from Speedway
(www.speedwaymotors.com). You won't have a park brake unless you use GM
calipers with park brake built in though. One way around that is to use
a manual caliper from a snowmobile/go cart. These are made in two halves
so a spacer can be made to make it wide enough for the vented rotor.
Other rotors can be used -- Ford light 4x4 truck rotors have the same
bolt pattern, as does the Crown Vic and some Toyota trucks. Hat type
aftermarket rotors work nicely also. A solid rotor is fine for the rear
brakes, doesn't have to be vented.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:15:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMBASSADORS (now trucks)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610241315.k9ODF3m06719@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" A: My stroker in the '84 J10 will do @20 mpg with LPG at $1.50 a gallon.
" That equals @ 25 mpg on gasoline price wise. Not terribly fond of the smell
" of oil burners. I don't think the QT would stand up to a weasel either. I
" stretched the #@$* out of the old chain (with the O/D part time kit)
seems to me all chain-drive t/c would have this weakness to a degree.
" The Hummer got a Chev TH400 or 700R4 trans (and that's TOOO Chevy for my
iirc not a 700r4 but 4L80.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:36:54 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Seven character serial numbers still used,
66-70s!!
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A0F7AD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've had some correspondence with a guy who has a 70 Javelin assembled
either by AMI (Australia) or the New Zealand assembly operation at
Christchurch (I forget the name...). I've also looked over some build
sheets for 70s cars for the US and Canada. It seems that AMC didn't
entirely drop their old serial number system from the 60s! The 70
Javelin has that type number for the VIN -- apparently NZ/Australia
didn't require a 13 character VIN. The international VIN standard (the
current 17 character VIN) didn't come about until 1981 as far as I can
tell (haven't done any recent research, just recalling from my AMC VIN
research). Anyone else seen an overseas assembled car, 66 or later, with
a seven character (letter and six number) serial number as the VIN?
There may be a plate on the car with a local VIN or serial number also.
Few overseas assembled cars will have a "Trim" number -- it should be
blank when upholstery was installed locally (all big operations).
Also -- if you look at a build sheet (for an example, see
http://www.planethoustonamx.com/, click on the "Production/Tech" tab,
then "Build Sheets", then scroll down for links to pics of some 68-71
sheets), you will see a "serial number" right under the sequence number.
The "sequence number" should correspond with the body number on the door
plate -- not the final assembly number. That serial number is like the
old serial numbers and should be a letter for body/engine type (might
just be body this late, since the VIN will specify engine) followed by
six digits. Beside this will be the order number, which should be a
sequential number for all cars (mixed). Eddie states that the serial
number is for engine (I think it's engine and body like the older serial
numbers), and the last six correspond to the VIN. Since he mainly
compared Javelin build sheets, if someone has others I'd like to know
the model and serial number on the build sheets, as well as the factory
engine size and carb. I'd like to have the same info for Javelins as
well. Eddie would appreciate a scanned copy of the build sheet if you
don't mind, or I'll forward to him if sent to me (unless you request the
info not be given out -- but I won't attach a name with any info).
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] my 62 classic project
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061024153935.77254.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
hello to all who have been helping me with advice on my project. i am in the process of getting out of iraq. so i have had no internet. have not been able to read much of anything that people have sent to me or keep up with the list.
so, i was readin the new hotrod after it finally got here to iraq. i want to try to have my 304/t5/mountaineer 8.8 in the rambler so i can go on power tour '07. sounds like it will be ton of fun. i just got alot of work ahead of me.
frank, i like your idea of how to mount my 8.8 with the triangulated 4 bar. will have to get out some paper, and tape measure and chalk to draw it all out on the floor when i get home.
how much should i expect to pay for a running 304 out of a wrecking yard or does anyone live anywhere near lawton ok that could hook me up with one i wont have to rebuild before using?
anyone that can help, would be great. anyone who wants to get ahold of me, please email driectly, as i wont be able to check the list for a while still. das24rules@xxxxxxxxxx take care all.
saw a couple of pics of some nice amc's on the power tour pics. hope to start seeing more.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 9:38:24 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] To The Recovering Mark Price
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: "Mr. AMC" <AMC74Hornet@xxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <9961097.1161707904153.JavaMail.root@web20>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mountain biking, yes, mostly. I will stick to the railtrail here in town and surrounding area. The railtrail is built on old railway right of ways and is much safer. Not completely safe, but as close as you can get.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- "Mr. AMC" <AMC74Hornet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I am glad to see you are on the mend Mark. I am not trying to be funny
> but are you going to give up mountain biking?
> "Doc"
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:12:08 -0500
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] my 62 classic project (rear suspension for
torque tube car)
To: <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<092D8CF6635129428E9B66DC582C3B3D01A0F8F6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dave, yours is the kind of project I'd like to be working with, or at
least "supervising". I don't mean actually looking over someone's
shoulder, but like a 2.3L Pinto engine in a 54 Rambler I helped with
years ago. I went over and the owner and I talked about a few things,
and I pointed a few things out, then he called me a month later with a
few snags, we discussed on the phone, and I dropped by for a couple
hours the next weekend. Only went over there three times, talked on the
phone four or five. He did all the work. Wish I'd taken pictures!! Now
for some of your specific problems:
1. 304 V-8. Believe it or not, those things are hard to find, and
getting hard to find things like pistons for! My advice would be to go
with a 360 because they are easiest to find. You may not need or want
that much power, but a stock 2V 360 will have what a mildly warmed up
304 would have. Keep the hood closed until you roast the tires or blow
someone away, THEN lift it and show a bone stock 2V 360! That 62 Classic
is lighter than it looks, and the carb will be hidden by the air filter
housing anyway. For more of a stealth look, grind all the extra fittings
and casting numbers off the iron intake, sill in extra holes with JB
Weld, and paint it with aluminum paint. I've seen that done before,
makes people really wonder what's in there.
2. Check out http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_index.htm.
That will be the best overall (ease of build/install along with good
handling/ride) rear suspension. HTHT uses I beams for the arms, which
are two pieces of channel back to back. I'd use a piece of 1.5"x3" 11
gauge (roughly 1/8") sidewall rectangular tubing for each arm. Look at
the G-body kit. That would be the easiest to adapt to your Rambler if
you prefer a kit (also look at the "Shoe Box" - 55-57 Chevy -- kit for
photos of one installed on a frame, much better idea of how it's
installed). The G-body has the springs mounted on top of the axle like
the Rambler. The G-body kit isn't listed, but all others are $1995 -- a
bit steep, with a triangulated kit from TCI running under $400. You can
buy the arms only for $220 each, and a lot of other components. I didn't
see anything that can't be made with a hack saw, welder, and ingenuity
-- and a lot less $$$ for your labor vs. theirs. Any 4x4 shop will have
the rear axle saddles. I'll be looking for someone with a car and wants
one of these after I get settled in SC (will be a couple years from
now!) who will pay for materials only so I can build one as a pattern
for making more. Depending on how you install the trans, you may need to
make a crossmember anyway. As long as the crossmember is near the end of
the trans, and the pivots for the arms are at or behind the universal
joint pivot point, you can make one for the arms and trans together. I'd
mount the engine using the existing side mounts and make a combo
crossmember myself. The front crossmember on the 62 will support the
engine, just weld on perches to match the engine mounts. The crossmember
can even be past the end of the trans with an "extension" going forward.
A couple pieces of angle iron or a piece of channel will make a make
crossmember. Since the rails run bumper to bumper on that body, make a
1.5"x6" or so plate from 1/8" steel to go under the carpet with a pair
of bolts running down through the rail tack welded to the plate (to
prevent turning). Carriage bolts would be nice -- 1/2" because they are
grade 3 or ungraded -- you need grade 5 to use 3/8". The rounded heads
won't "bump" under the carpet much. The RACE (company name) adjustable
ladder bar kit is the next beast and easiest to install. It runs $260
from Summit, and you can modify the existing panhard rod and mount
provided it's the same as the 63 mount (axle end bolts on to one of the
truss rod mounts). You may be able to use a diagonal bar instead of a
panhard rod or triangulated four link. This mounts one end of a bar on
the axle end of a lower link, the other end on the opposite chassis end
of a lower link. This works link with parallel four link or the ladder
bars.
3. I've sent a simplified line drawing of the truck arm suspension to
your account. It has the springs mounted on the arms, but shold clear
anything up the HRTH photos don't show.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:51:41 EDT
From: Nolanatcamelot@xxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] Tachometer
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <ccc.1067165.326fc8cd@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Nor Cal AMC has a computerless member who needs to know how to test the
tachometer in his 73 Javelin AMX Pierre Cardin edition. His manual doesn't say
but ....can you help him? Please send responses to _nolanatcamelot@xxxxxxxx
(mailto:nolanatcamelot@xxxxxxx) .
Many thanks.
Nolan Dehner
Nor Cal AMCs
Windsor, Ca 95492
1975 Pacer D/L (Sold)
1976 Pacer D/L (Sold)
1976 Pacer Standard
1979 Pacer Wagon Limited
2004 Toyota Avalon
Nolanatcamelot@xxxxxxx
------------------------------
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