AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
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- Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 01:53:28 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: rambler hot rod // backwards six (Sandwich Maker)
2. Rambler Hot Rod - con't - (Brien Tourville)
3. Re: Rambler Hot Rods - con't (Sandwich Maker)
4. New 2008 Ford F450 truck (Eddie Stakes)
5. '80 Eagle grille on eBay - nice custom for Spirit/Concord.
(John W Rosa)
6. NOS late-73 to 75 Gremlin grille....$50!? eBay (John W Rosa)
7. Intake manifolds (Armand Eshleman)
8. Intake manifolds (Armand Eshleman)
9. Fw: disc brakes interchange question (Eddie Stakes)
10. Fw: matador wagon parts wanted (Eddie Stakes)
11. Re: Fw: disc brakes interchange question (Sandwich Maker)
12. Re: rambler hot rod // backwards six (farna@xxxxxxx)
13. Re: rambler hot rod // backwards six (Tom Jennings)
14. Re: AMC Hot Rod-Mid engine (Jim Blair)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:10:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] rambler hot rod // backwards six
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610041210.k94CADQ14736@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
"
"
" > " I have a 1975 T14 with Laycock de Normanville electric OD;
"
" On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Sandwich Maker wrote:
"
"
" > with that pattern you have few choices if you don't want to adapt.
" > ...
" > amc t10, amc richmond 5sp with 'mexican' bell
"
" I may ask you about that bell sometime soon... :-)
i'm listening!
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:32:30 -0400
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Rambler Hot Rod - con't -
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <45237FAE.13839.244CD52@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> A tandem seating cigar style Roadster with the short wind screens
> & pop up baby carriage style 'convertible' roofing for those
> sudden storm situations is taking up room on my sketch pad.
I hadn't seriously considered that, partly because it's really
unlikely I'm going to fabricate my own body (steel or glas).
I'm going to have to buy scrounge or find.
=== ===
I like scrounge !
seriously, if you've those Sprint Car dirt track guys
nearby, they'll be interested in the project - probably
most have a way to get that engine into a Sprint frame -
just stretch the tubes in front is all.
Skin ? Aluminium sheeting - rubber mallets - bucks
skinned in cheap vynal or leather coats from Salvation Army
for forms is all - some curves here & there - not rocket science.
I have found surfing the .net all night - that most all 1950
Indy Roadster pictures - are not here.
Somehow or nether, this niche in Racing have saved all Photos
for those expensive Color Folio Coffee Table Books.
Going to hit Barnes & Noble to cull out the best.
Navarros' 'Ghost' could be a 'Howler' ;)
=Bt=
milnersXcoupe
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 10:03:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Rambler Hot Rods - con't
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610041403.k94E3Nu15046@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
"
"
"
"
"
"
"
" some 'concepts' - cars & aircraft - seem good, in narrow
" applications they are - street apps. is a whole 'nuther world of
" bad road angles, oil sweat pavement and many, many, stupid
" drivers.........
"
" front engined cars will let you know ahead of time when you're at
" a traction limit - you can kick the rear end out to correct
" perhaps - unless you're running a '56 Golden Hawk with the 352
" PACKARD 'boat-anchor' up front stuffed in the Studebaker
" 'rubber-frame'.........
"
" with this car - the condition of coined - nose would wash out as
" the rear lifted - and swung....... while seeking traction on the
" white wall portion of the side walls........fun....!
this isn't the result of a front engine per se, but of a forward
weight bias. control absent, the heavy end always wants to go first.
" the PORSCHE 914 mid engined was OK with the 4cyl. 2.0 yet as
" weight went up with the 914/6 GT, the Factory added 'Fender
" Flares' to accommodate the wider rims on the Performance versions
" - but they saw the writing on the wall as to their current
" technology and what could be 'death ride for cutie'.
"
" they hung into curves until they let go - without much warning
" and not many techniques could recover control once lost - rear
" didn't swing out as much as you left the road pancaking sideways.
what you're talking about is porsche's notorious 'trailing throttle
oversteer'. the 914 had a fairly even f/r weight balance, and its
manners were mild compared to the 911 with a heavy rearward bias,
especially as hp went up in the '70s.
there were front engined cars - lotus comes to mind - with weight
distribution comparable to the 914. iirc the '66 dodge charger with
318 was 52/48% f/r...
" the WW-II AirCobra mid engined fighter was hated by American
" Pilots - so we sent them to the Russians....that should tell you
" something.
"
" plane did not handle well at all beyond a ground attack aircraft.
" saw one pilot gesturing the handling to a group - yaw & pitch
" body language was terrifying to anyone who has flown.
this is the 'dart effect'. for aircraft stability you want the center
of mass to be forward of the center of drag - but that means you have
to dial some elevator in just to maintain level flight, and that means
more drag. the aircobra attempted to improve that and also reduce
frontal area by putting the pilot in front of the engine, but either
they misjudged their design's stability or human pilot ability to cope.
modern jet fighters would be much worse than the aircobra if they
didn't have electronic stability augmentation systems, but they are
faster and more maneuverable because of their reduced stability.
" Rear engined Formula 1 cars of the 60s were designed for that
" long wide oval track -
except f1 rarely raced on ovals...
" check the amount of 'squat' they dialed into that IRS coupled
" with humongous at that time tyre widths just to stay glued. That
" era had the most dramatic wrecks of most racing history.
that's also because speeds were dramatically increasing but safety
concerns were not.
" Current V-12 Ferraris', have a habit of lifting their front
" suspensions over small road irregularities at slower speeds and
" ending up in store fronts - European Racing - seen a few film
" clips featuring this 'Option'.
this could just as easily be a geometry problem with a suspension set
up for high speed manners.
" Moms' 356 did this to me during some spirited back road rallying
" against a TR Spitfire - tyres finally bit as I headed into the
" Apple Orchard - didn't wrap the car up that afternoon.
trailing throttle oversteer, or perhaps swing axle tuck-under...
sounds to me like the car got ahead of an inexperienced driver.
" I liked your original concept of an early Track Roadster with the
" Navarro 6 - I'm sure all that plumbing could be arranged for a
" high 'drool factor' eye candy without fogging up your goggles.
i must say the classic look has a certain appeal...
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:01:19 -0500
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] New 2008 Ford F450 truck
To: <baadassGremlins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <012001c6e7fc$1512b440$e8f3b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Figured that would get your attention. How about this, in a Mahoney-like
twist, the new 650 lbs of torque the new F450 2008 Ford truck puts out, it
also has American Motors accents. Yes, I thought I was going nuts too, but
check out the dash on this monster. It has identical louver AC vents same
looking types AMC used from 68-70 in the Ambassador, AMX, Javelin, Rebel
Series:
http://imgup-lb.automotive.com:8080/files/1006757.w630.jpg
and a 70 AMX for comparison:
http://www.arcticboy.com/media/amx/amx70in.jpg
I wonder if these will interchange and simply bolt in......hee hee.
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.planethoustonamx.com
Email is currently HEAVY
5-12 day reply times, call if important
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:14:07 -0400
From: "John W Rosa" <JohnRosa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] '80 Eagle grille on eBay - nice custom for
Spirit/Concord.
To: "AMC List" <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001001c6e80a$cc3aa430$0202a8c0@jwrhome>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
HYPERLINK
"http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300034369
814"http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300034
369814
Starts at $10, no bds yet, 2 days to go.
These make a nice custom look on a hi-po Spirit. Just remove the Eagle
emblem, shoot it black if you wish, or just clean it up for a ?tube?
grille style appearance. Clean and slick looking.
John W Rosa
HYPERLINK "http://www.javelinamx.com/"www.JavelinAMX.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.12/462 - Release Date:
10/3/2006
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:17:09 -0400
From: "John W Rosa" <JohnRosa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] NOS late-73 to 75 Gremlin grille....$50!? eBay
To: "AMC List" <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001501c6e80b$37f20510$0202a8c0@jwrhome>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
HYPERLINK
"http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280034182
014"http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280034
182014
4 days to go, no bids, no reseve?starts at $50. Somebody must need this!
John W Rosa
www.JavelinAMX.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.12/462 - Release Date:
10/3/2006
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:20:22 -0500
From: "Armand Eshleman" <aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Intake manifolds
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <002e01c6e80b$ab08c200$6601a8c0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Lately there was some discussion regarding intake manifold gaskets and how
to install them. I really thought it was great that we got some guys to
respond to it. I haven't put an intake on an AMC engine in maybe 27 or 28
years, and I had completely forgotten about the features of the metal
gasket. Can anyon eexpand on this and tell us where sealant is needed and
where sealant should not be used?? How about the best source for this metal
gasket?? Anyone have a good supplier for it??
Thanks,
Armand
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:20:57 -0500
From: "Armand Eshleman" <aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Intake manifolds
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <003501c6e80b$bfba9c00$6601a8c0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Lately there was some discussion regarding intake manifold gaskets and how
> to install them. I really thought it was great that we got some guys to
> respond to it. I haven't put an intake on an AMC engine in maybe 27 or 28
> years, and I had completely forgotten about the features of the metal
> gasket. Can anyon eexpand on this and tell us where sealant is needed and
> where sealant should not be used?? How about the best source for this
metal
> gasket?? Anyone have a good supplier for it??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Armand
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:39:49 -0500
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Fw: disc brakes interchange question
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: rclaudio@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <01f801c6e80f$6aba1010$e8f3b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Rich below is asking a brake question, feel free to reply if you can help out and thanks in advance to all who might reply.
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.planethoustonamx.com
Email is currently HEAVY
5-12 day reply times, call if important
----- Original Message -----
From: rclaudio@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: disc brakes
hi eddie need to know if the disc brakes assy. would fit a 63 rambler classic ...disc brake assy could be a 68 javelin cause they also use trionion suspension. any help or ideas would work....thaks rich
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:07:51 -0500
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Fw: matador wagon parts wanted
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Camoufrog13@xxxxxxx
Message-ID: <01fc01c6e80f$6ba61dc0$e8f3b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Anyone that migth be able to help Charlene with the Matador parts feel free to give her a shout below and thanks in advance to all who might reply.
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.planethoustonamx.com
Email is currently HEAVY
5-12 day reply times, call if important
----- Original Message -----
From: Camoufrog13@xxxxxxx
To: eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 6:39 PM
Subject: amc parts
looking for 1971-1972 parts for a matador wagon. need rear view mirror, radiator, front chrome bumper + more???
Charlene Jo
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 20:05:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fw: disc brakes interchange question
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx, rclaudio@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200610050005.k9505cu19906@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" ----- Original Message -----
" From: rclaudio@xxxxxxxxxxxx
"
"
" hi eddie need to know if the disc brakes assy. would fit a 63 rambler
" classic ...disc brake assy could be a 68 javelin cause they also use
" trunnion suspension. any help or ideas would work....thaks rich
" _______________________________________________
it could be any amc disks; they all bolt on the same way, with
separate spindles and knuckles. the '60s brakes are the worst, most
expensive ahd hard to get parts for, and most troublesome. '82-3 are
the best from parts availability standpoint, but any of the '77-newer
hornet/gremlin etc bendix stuff isn't bad. the big brakes used on
matadors are more powerful but parts are getting harder to find.
you'll need everything back to the spindles [disk and drum spindles
are not the same], and master cylinder and proportioning valve.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:56:59 +0000
From: farna@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] rambler hot rod // backwards six
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<100520060056.18885.4524585A000E9591000049C521603831160E029D0E00@xxxxxxx>
" The Halibrand transaxle (used in #50) is REALLY SHORT, sort of
" visible in these photos:
"
" http://www.cacklefest.com/images/motor-mounted.jpg
" http://www.cacklefest.com/images/striping-002.jpg
"
" (Note distance motor to axle CL)
couldn't see much. does the halibrand put the gearbox behind the
axle? unless it does i don't see how it could be much different than
the c5 setup.
------------------
You can see how long the Halibrand setup is in the second photo though. A short 4x4 trans with Jag/'vette IRS would be about the same length. That type Halibrand setup HAS NO SUSPENSION!! Wouldn't work well on the street. It's not really a transaxle, but a differential linked directly to the transmission with a slip coupling. The only way to make that work on the street would be to put the engine/trans/diff on a swinging subframe and spring that, like some go-carts do with chain drive. The C5 'vette setup can't be bolted directly to a bell housing, so it's out of the question for a mid engine. Best setup for a mid engine is the Toro/Eldo/Riv axle. Just make the adapter! Those were used in Corvairs with 455s and such in the middle of the car, there may be an adapter for an SBC also. Not that it would help with an AMC engine.
--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
(free download available!)
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] rambler hot rod // backwards six
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610041814590.25888@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, farna@xxxxxxx wrote:
> You can see how long the Halibrand setup is in the second photo though. A short 4x4 trans with Jag/'vette IRS would be about the same length. That type Halibrand setup HAS NO SUSPENSION!! Wouldn't work well on the street. It's not really a transaxle, but a differential linked directly to the transmission with a slip coupling. The only way to make that work on the street would be to put the engine/trans/diff on a swinging subframe and spring that, like some go-carts do with chain drive. The C5 'vette setup can't be bolted directly to a bell housing, so it's out of the question for a mid engine. Best setup for a mid engine is the Toro/Eldo/Riv axle. Just make the adapter! Those were used in Corvairs with 455s and such in the middle of the car, there may be an adapter for an SBC also. Not that it would help with an AMC engine.
I didn't take photos (doh!), and cannot recall, what the exact
setup was on the #50 car, but it's hard to believe a 200mph
Indy car did not have rear suspension. I have a vague memory
of U-jointed swing axles and inboard brakes. Sure, for a drag
car like the photos I included for general comparison, I can
see no rear suspension.
I've come to my senses (sic) and have abandoned mid-engine ideas.
I've more or less returned to a basic hot rod design, as follows:
The Navarro motor -- vastly detuned -- in the front of the car,
some 3-speed trans with OD, stock AMC rear. Hot rod kit frame or
equiv. Beam axle or TBD. 104" wheelbase or so. Track-roadsterish
body. No doors no top. Body TBD.
32 Ford-type frames are pretty twisty, I don't understand how
people put 500HP in those things and drive them for real. It's
just a pair of tin 2x4's!
This would make the motor somewhat of a joke to some, but
consider -- it was a hairy mechanical injected (or worse, carbed)
monster as designed, and I'm not Barney freakin' Navarro motor
god. I don't have the custom conn rods and possibly not even the
right pistons (it is sleeved to non-stock dimensions). I won't
be running Hilborn injection! I couldn't afford a chassis that
would safely take 500hp, nor could I afford the driveline
guts, tires, etc to go with it. A driveable 6-cyl putt-putt
hotrod would be very fun to drive, the motor would be seen and
not ruined, and so light as to be damn fast. And I could run
skinny tall tires on an old style open-wheeled car like I've
wanted for a long time. Most importantly it's a project I
could actually complete.
I could even put one of the special no-part-number heads
and the turbo gunk on a stock Rambler six and save myself
a lot of trouble, run just 8 - 10 lbs max and not worry
about it. Externally the Navarro motor is just about stock
(drilled/plugged all over for oiling mods).
(PS: I made another inquiry to a friend who has contacted the
Navarro family before, to see if I could interview him re: the
Indy project. Didn't hear back the first time, no word yet on
the 2nd.)
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 18:53:21 -0700
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC Hot Rod-Mid engine
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F10A4D62248A349C3FF094FAC120@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
A: The FWD trans are BOP (and Caddy for early V8s till they went to MPFI)
Just had another thought today. Landrover kept the Nailhead pattern and if
the trans they used can be beefed up more than a 42RE (I'm selling the '96
ZJ 42RE trans "core" I have for $75, but it's 4x4. It worked but didn't
shift right, likely due to the valve body problem they are plagued with), I
may have an O/D option for my '73 J4000.
I have mechanic friends at the local Landrover dealer that I can ask to
watch for a usable core for me.
From: Jesse <j2sax@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC Hot Rod-Mid engine
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061004015229.70441.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hmmm, I must have missed a lot with all those spin
around backwards suggestions, however, here's my .02.
If I were going Mid Engine With and AMC, I would get
the Fwd TH400 from an Olds Toronado and mount it out
back behind the engine.
Does that have the same Bolt pattern as the FSJ TH400
before they adapted an actual AMC Bolt Pattern? Now
wouldn't that be cool if you could take the early
adapter for the Jeep TH400 and mount an Olds FWD trans
straight up!
Hey, we could even do a FWD AMC that way!
(If you were not aware, the original Olds Toronado was
a Big Block Front Wheel Drive Monster from the 60's...
an AWEsome cruiser and BRUIser.) A definite cool rig!
OK, Boys, LIGHT ME UP!
Jesse
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
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