AMC-List Digest, Vol 5, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Rocker Molding Clips (Ken Siroonian)
   2. pacer molding needed (Ken Siroonian)
   3. Re: Painless Dent Removal (Keleigh Hardie)
   4. Re: my 62 classic project (Sandwich Maker)
   5. Re: my 62 classic project (Sandwich Maker)
   6. aquygen - aqua oxygen fuel - the cure for Arab Oil ?	Check it
      out ! (Jerry Casper)
   7. What I've learned about auto A/C (Tom Jennings)
   8. factory 1964 A/C unit (classic/ambo) (Tom Jennings)
   9. Re: my 62 classic project (Tom Jennings)
  10. Re: my 62 classic project (Tom Jennings)
  11. Re: AC installing (Tom Jennings)
  12. Steve Schall Update (Jock J Jocewicz)


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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:44:14 -0400
From: Ken Siroonian <KSiroonian@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Rocker Molding Clips
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
	<ADVANCES626HYpH4Mx3000000be@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain

try these, i bought solem clips from them, not sure of the type you
need, fast shipping.
http://stores.ebay.com/Fasteners-Plus_W0QQsspagenameZADMEQ3aBQ3aEOIBSAQ3
aUSQ3a60QQtZkm


http://www.cliphouse.com/    the  clip house.  

*************************************************

On June 3, 2006 Mr. AMC wrote:

> Anyone know where I can get some rocker panel molding clips.
Universal
> ones used to be available from Dormans that I have used in the past
for
> different withe moldings but as is my usual luck with this car when
I
> tried to buy them I found that they were no longer available. I have
> some I bought 5-6 years ago but don't know if I have enough of them.
I
> have to remove and modify the stainless rocker moldings on the car
to
> install the 77 AMX flairs and they also need a good polishing. Also
the
> recessed area that is painted black the paint is worn off and I plan
on
> painting that area orange to match the car.
> "Doc"


=============================================================
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:48:04 -0400
From: Ken Siroonian <KSiroonian@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] pacer molding needed
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
	<ADVANCES62xpTljBOh8000000bf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain

anyone parted out a pacer that night have the black grained body side
mouolding. ifs for the right rear quarter , just a few inches long,
probablby just 3-4  inches long I think., mine fell off and i cant find 
it to reglue. probalby any of the ones will do form either side and I
can recut it. this molding is from 75-77 I think and is the one what is 
slightly wider and has more of a grain in it that the later ones that
were a bit smoother grains and not as wide and tall. Used is fine if
anyone happens to have one poking around., regards and thanks

=============================================================
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 02:08:53 -0400
From: Keleigh Hardie <ramblinguy@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Painless Dent Removal
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
	<ADVANCES62xc1o8yfog00000143@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] my 62 classic project
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200606041501.k54F1Ok16916@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

" From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
" 
" the guy also has a t96 with overdrive unit and a long tail shaft. tail
" shaft looks like it is set up for a slip yoke not a torque tube tho.
" would i be able to take off that tail shaft and put my torque tube mount
" on instead?

this would be possible if amc adjusted the tranny-o/d adapter length
so that the o/d tailshaft was always the same length, but i don't know
if they actually did this.  otoh if you're talking about t-96 - t-96,
that should be a dropkick, though you might have to swap a lot of
parts.

" i would just rather get rid of my torque tube all together.
" have an open shaft. i think my 62 has the t96 in it now. if i got the
" t86, wouldnt it be able to stand the 304 better when i get ready to put
" it in? will the 86 bolt on to my bellehousing? or be able to redrill
" holes in my bellhousing for mounting to the 86?

iirc the t-86 has the same nose as the t-89, t-10, and t-15 - long 1
1/8" x 10 spline input and 4.64" retainer, though only the t-15 shares
bolt pattern - so it should bolt straight up to the 304 with a '66-'74
v8 bell.  as for strength - amc used it with 287s, ford with 289s;
it'd be a good match for the 304.  the t-96 would be hopeless.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:04:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] my 62 classic project
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200606041504.k54F4ZC16963@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

" From: <francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" 
" "Date: Saturday, June 3, 2006 04:52 PM
" From: andrew hay <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" 
" 
" but -- doesn't the t-86 have a different nose from the t-96?  iirc it
" has a squarer pattern, larger retainer, and longer 1 1/8" dia input
" shaft.  iirc frank searched for some time for the right bellhousing
" for his 4.0 / '63 classic, before giving up and going auto."
" 
" 
" Not quite. I wasn't able to find a T-86 OD unit. I did use a 79 multi
" pattern bell housing with the 4.0L and a T-96. The T-96 just wasn't
" strong enough for the 4.0L (then 4.6L) and I replaced it with an auto
" because I couldn't find a T-86. I'm not sure about the bolt pattern and
" bearing retainer diameter of the T-86. I wouldn't be surprised if it's
" bigger -- would expect it actually. The T-96 is real light duty. The 86
" and 96 may share the same bolt pattern though, the T-86 was a HD option
" for 196 cars that normally came with a T-96. 

d'oh!  i just realized that if the t-86 has the nose i described, a
'66-'74 v8 bell would've matched it to your 4.0 - so that wouldn't
have been the problem.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Casper <gremlingts@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] aquygen - aqua oxygen fuel - the cure for Arab Oil
	?	Check it out !
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx, AMC <amc-delmarva@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
	BadAssGremlins <baadassgremlins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060604201129.99916.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

  http://aquygen.blogspot.com/

 Apparently a guy in Florida has discovered a CHEAP
way to crack water, AND it has special properties
unlike a normal Hydrogen and Oxygen gas system, it is
a new HHO gas, stable but gaseous, and burns clean,
can be COMBINED with gasoline and diesel fuel systems
, or run by itself. There's already a patent applied
for and granted, so this is no hoax, apparently.
Defense Dept. and major automobile companies are
already interested. Several main GOOD points about it
are :

- can be immediately used in ALL gasoline and diesel
engines, no excessive mods necessary.

- Infrastructure already exists to deliver systems for
hybrid useage.

- Can be cracked by using excess Alternator output ( 4
hp loss ), while giving a 17 HP gain in performance. 

- No high-pressure container needed to hold gas, it's
separated while driving and as needed. 4 ounces of
water will go 100 miles with gas or diesel, increasing
gas mileage 50%.

- Pollutants decrease markedly with the addition of
this HHO magnacular gas. 

  So,any downsides? NONE I can see so far! If this
stuff is for real, and if the patent application that
has been granted is legit, as is documented in this
Blog website, then this may be the breakthru needed to
wean off Arab oil eventually. NO need to sweat old
cars being obsolete by needing special motors, etc.
Denny Klein is the inventor, and his name MAY go down
in history if this amazing invention lives up to the
promise of cheap, almost free fuel. Needs distilled
water, but even so, not a major problem I don't think.
Ok, it won't be free, heck a bottle of 16 ounce water
is over $1.50, so gasoline will be cheaper, but if you
only need 4 ounces per 100 miles, that's still about
.40. NADA. Bring on the Super SUV's! LOL. Monster
Hemi's, 20 MPG. No problem. Well, I thought this
interesting enough to post, it can be retrofited to
any AMC car or truck. Woohoo! C'mon, Denny, get this
on the market!

Jerry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] What I've learned about auto A/C
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606041353270.10591@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I've built one auto A/C system from scratch, and doing a
second as a retrofit. I'm hardly an expert, but I've done a
LOT of research and asked some actual experts. There's a lot
of bullshit out there, especially small sites selling magical
"drop in" replacement fluids.  Nothing beats knowing how it
actually works though! Then you'll be able to tell a crock of
poo from chocolate ice cream. Here's a summary of what I know:

www.acsource.com is a great place. The guy who runs it has 35
years experience; provides advice to sensible do-it-yourselfers;
sells parts at reasonable prices, and answers tech question
email. I think Mark Price turned me on ho him; thanks!!!


First, you have to have a basic understanding of how A/C works:
when the freon gas is compressed, it gets really hot (same as
any gas). The hot gas cools in the condenser in front of the
car; it turns to a high-pressure liquid. This is hosed to the
evaparator under the dash, where the high-pressure liquid gets
squirt through a small hole (the "expansion valve"), turns to
a gas again, and soaks up heat (eg. gets cold). Exactly the
same as a spray can does -- the expansion valve is basically
the spray top.  The compressor sucks it in and cycles it through.


R12 vs. H134a: there are three practical differences; they inform
the Retrofit Rules below:

 * One, the pressure on the low side is higher for H134a than
 for R12. Hence Retrofit Rule #1.

 * Two, when H134a goes from a liquid to a gas in the expansion
 valve, it doesn't soak up as much heat as R12 does; about 90%
 the amount. Hence Retrofit Rule #2.

 * Three, the oil used in older R12 systems doesn't mix well
 with H134a, so internal parts don't get lubricated well,
 and wear out fast. Hence Retrofit Rule #3.

Retrofit Rule #1: When you fill an R12 system with H134a, you
will put about 10% less H134a in than you would R12. I assume
you have a TSM. See below for correct method of charging. No
need to freak out here.

Retrofit Rule #2: you simply need to pay more attention to the
condenser, so that as much heat as possible is taken out of the
hot freon. Make it bigger if you can afford it, but all of the
following is more than adequate: seal condenser sides so that all
fan air goes through, not around, the condenser; add an electric
fan if you have mechanical (drive with relay from clutch wire);
bigger fan. No need to freak out. With a good cooling system,
a retrofitted R12/H134a system could actually be colder than
a factory, typically sloppy system.

Retrofit Rule #3: dump out the old oil, if any, and replace
with the recommended PAG oil, preferably with a dye to help find
leaks. Small amounts of ester oil left behind will do NO harm;
apparently it will color the new oil but this is harmless.



The expansion valve: on our older cars, it turns out that there
are very few different, and semi-standard types.  You can get
H134a calibrated ones cheap. They are physically a major PITA to
replace unless you have the evaporator unit on the bench; if you
twist the copper lines on the coils you will wreck it instanter.
Use two wrenches and you're OK; but not easy upside down under
the dash!

But it seems to be just fine to simply run the R12 valve and
forgetaboutit.

Fittings: older systems use ordinary flare-type fittings.
They tend to leak unless assembled perfectly (entirely possible).
All new systems use O-ring fittings, which don't seal even
when assembled by monkeys. All new A/C components will come
with O-ring fittings.

This isn't a problem -- www.acsource.com sells very inexpensive
adapters that make O-ring compressors take flare hoses.

Compressors: there is NO REASON AT ALL except originality to
keep those old upright York type compressors. If it's working fine,
no problem, leave it! But if you need to replace/rebuild it,
the Sanden 508 works great, about $250 brand new.

ONE BIG PROBLEM retrofitting a Sanden into older systems is
actually easily solved: the Sandens usually have a #10 hose
on the suction side; my Hornet (and Rambler, and all our older
stuff) usually has #8. The solution is again www.acsource.com:
he sells hose ends that accept #8 hose (from the suction side
of the AMC evaparator) and attach directly to ther #10 O-ring
fitting on the Sanden.

Most places will sell you an adapter that trivially attaches
a Sanden compressor onto the mounting plate for a York.

For the AMC six, the later engines came with a complicated cast
aluminum mount for the compressor and alternator; this is the
way to go even thou it means buying new fanbelts. I don't know
nuttin' about them newfangled serpentines.

I even adapted one of those bracket setups onto
the 1970 232 (old block) in my '63 Rambler.
http://wps.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-Classic-550-Cross-Country/AC/index.html


Making your own hoses: after mounting the compressor,
if you don't already have one, this is the hardest part of
the project.  the entire project! You absolutely need to use
crimp type compression fittings. The crimper runs $450. Untill
I borrowed my father's, what I did was buy lengths of hose,
and the fittings, assembled it all in place (actually running
the hoses and hand-tightening the connections) then marking the
fitting position on the hose with a paint pen and taking them
to the local hose shop to be crimped. A/C barrier hose is stiff,
it cannot be twisted lengthwise, so test first.


Hoses, barrier vs. non-barrier, and leakage: new hoses are
all barrier hose, and contain a (duh) barrier to prevent the
H134a from leaking.  However, you CAN reuse your old, R12,
non-barrier hoses, assuming they are in good, non-leaking and
non-cracked condition. The reason is, it turns out that the
ester oil soaks into the inner layer of the hose and creates
a barrier during normal use. Studies were done about this,
referred to on the EPA site.


And last:

Proper system charging: this is hearsay from experts, I have
not yet done this! Pretty much everyone states that you should
fill the system normally (from the low side) with a gauge set,
initially to about 80% by weight what was specified for R12. Then
on a hot day with motor at 2500 rpm, the A/C blasting with the
windows open, add H134a until the low side pressure is optimum.

I have no idea what optimum is at this point.


My 1970 Hornet: I'm attempting to use the factory evap unit.
I long ago bought an R12-ready Sanden 508, but I'm dumping
the oil out of it and converting to H134a. I have a factory
condenser, about 16x24 (pretty big!), two electric fans, and
a 3-row radiator. I need a few fittings. I hope to
charge it up in a couple of weeks.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] factory 1964 A/C unit (classic/ambo)
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606041455490.10591@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I've got one, in fair shape, with known-bad expansion valve.
I do NOT! have the dashboard with vents, just the under-dash
guts, fan, housing, chromed control panel. Anyone wants it,
I'll let it go cheap.



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] my 62 classic project
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606041459300.10591@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, d stohler wrote:

> i came across a t86 tranny with a borg warner overdrive unit,
torque tube mount and all. how hard would it be to shorten my
torque tube to fit this set up, or would i even have to cause if
i remeber right, i have a long tail shaft on my transmission,
and i see this overdrive unit taking up where my long tail
shaft is. did they put that long tail shaft on the back of none
overdrive units so they could use the same torque tube set up? if
not, would i be able to cut a section of the torque tube out,
reweld it and shorten the driveshaft? i have a triangulated 4
link for the rear now so the torque tube will not be stressed
so cutting and welding shouldnt be a problem would it? thanks

I've done the opposite -- took a t89 with OD out of my 1963
Classic, and installed a 1965 little Borg Warner. Lengths match
fine and it all bolted up. With a 1970 232 in front, no less.
Ignorance is bliss.

I too have a t89 with OD for torque tube. I paid $75, it was
pulled known-workin from a 64 Classic about 2 yrs ago.


(I swapped out my orig. t89 out because I sheared teeth off
first gear cresting a very steep hill with the 232.)




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:13:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] my 62 classic project
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606041511390.10591@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Tom Jennings wrote:

> I've done the opposite -- took a t89 with OD out of my 1963
> Classic, and installed a 1965 little Borg Warner. Lengths match
> fine and it all bolted up. With a 1970 232 in front, no less.
> Ignorance is bliss.

ERRT! ERRT! DIMWIT ALARM (me). I had a T96, the little weak thing,
not a T89. My bad. Never mind. I was just leaving anyways.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:26:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AC installing
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606041521242.10591@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Sandwich Maker wrote:

> no, you don't have to use r12.  the compatible stuff is in fact
> compatible.  the main issue with it is they can't recycle it the way
> they do with r12 or r134 because they're single compounds which can be
> easily separated from the oil but compatibles are afaik all mixtures
> which if anything are too compatible with the oil and not separable at
> all.  also, it's fairly well known that r134 isn't quite as frosty as
> r12, but i've heard that some of the compatibles cool better.

I can find no independent research that supports the assertion
that any of the blends or replacements are better than h134a
or r12.

All of the OEMs that have retrofit instructions (eg. 80's/90's
GM, etc) recommend 134, only. 100% of them.

The EPA has done a lot of research for industry, back when a
replacement for R12 was sought, and ongoing, and has not come
up with a better substance than h134a.

It seems to me that the only organizations that claim
blends/replacements are better are the ones that sell them!



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:44:34 -0500
From: Jock J Jocewicz <namdra@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Steve Schall Update
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx, rhallack@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, mramc@xxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060604.174434.-16419963.0.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

As I posted yesterday, a great AMC'er, Steve Schall, passed away. For
your info his wake will be held on Tuesday from 4-8PM at 1211 N Seminary
Ave. (Hwy. 47) in Woodstock, IL. His funeral will be held on Wednesday at
11AM at St. Patricks of Hartland church, 15012 St. Patrick Rd.,
Woodstock, IL.

If any of you knew Steve and/or appreciated his AMC efforts, you can send
a condolence card, etc. to the Schall
family at:

The Schall Family
3913 N. Route 47
Woodstock, IL 60098

Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA     NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
          JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!!
'06 AMC NATIONALS - SEP. 14-16, 2006 - CORDOVA DRAGWAY PARK, CORDOVA, IL
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974,  NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766


------------------------------

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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 5, Issue 10
***************************************