AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 48
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 48
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- Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:08:33 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Was E-Stick, Now Drivers
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
2. Re: Was E-Stick, Now Drivers (Sandwich Maker)
3. Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (John Elle)
4. Re: Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (Sandwich Maker)
5. Re: Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (Mark Price)
6. Re: Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (msproviero@xxxxxxxxxxx)
7. Re: Tust the Midas Touch - if you're a Masochist - (ROSS BLAIR)
8. Ebay Gremlin Item number: 260066423467 (Mark Price)
9. Re: Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (Sandwich Maker)
10. Re; Another, E Stick, now Drivers (John Elle)
11. Re: Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (Mark Price)
12. Re: Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers (Tom Jennings)
13. Re: Ebay Gremlin Item number: 260066423467 (Tom Jennings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:51:54 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Was E-Stick, Now Drivers
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A319C912@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The E-stick was available from 1961-63 in Americans and Classics, 196
L-head or OHV (but not the aluminum engine because of the different oil
pump, I think). Basically it was a cheaper alternative to an auto that
got better mileage. At least until engine oil pressure started to go or
you were in a hilly area. Both would wear on the clutch, as would
jack-rabbit starts. I recall reading that some company bought a bunch to
use as in-town delivery vehicles, but were replacing clutches once a
year (20K or so) because of all the starts/stops/driving like it's not
yours.
Almost all manufacturers had some sort of semi-auto trans where you only
had to use the clutch to come to a complete stop and to start. Once GM
introduced the Hydramatic in the late 30s (I seem to recall 38?) they
had to! GM didn't start selling Hydros to others until 1950. Then Nash
was the first to make a deal, trading use of their "Weather Eye"
filtration system for rights to buy the Hydro. A year or two later GM
was selling Hydros to others as well.
I'd like to do the cruise and swap thing! I imagine a few people would
be interested in the ride and handling of my Jag rear axle car w/rack
and pinion, semi-auto trans, and 4.6L stroker even though it's nothing
exotic. The big problem I'd have is it's reliable, but still has a few
things that need to be fixed. Noise in the rear end due to the used
gears I have and worn side bearings (something I should have replaced
when I replaced all seals, but they looked good...). I also have a
vibration at speed. I think it might be the bearings, at least
contributing to it. But the 67-78 big cars had a vibration damper
mounted on the driveshaft hump roughly in the center of the car. I think
I'm going to get one of those and try it. I've checked all the universal
joints (all six!) and have nothing loose, and the driveshaft angle is
within a degree or two. Just minor irritants, nothing that's kept me
from driving the last four years!!
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:12:06 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Was E-Stick, Now Drivers
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612211512.kBLFC6l21277@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM" <Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
"
" Almost all manufacturers had some sort of semi-auto trans where you only
" had to use the clutch to come to a complete stop and to start. Once GM
" introduced the Hydramatic in the late 30s (I seem to recall 38?) they
that sounds about right.
" had to! GM didn't start selling Hydros to others until 1950. Then Nash
" was the first to make a deal, trading use of their "Weather Eye"
" filtration system for rights to buy the Hydro. A year or two later GM
" was selling Hydros to others as well.
and putting them in unexpected places, like the m135 korean-war army
trucks, behind the 302-inch six - the other 'jimmy' beloved of early
hot rodders. how about a deuce-and-a-half with a wayne head and
fenton headers? but i've always heard the gmcs were crap compared to
the reo-studebaker-kaiser-amgeneral m35/m44; they actually lost the
army drive-off but were made anyway because of korea.
not long after that the factory was totally destroyed in a fire, and
then the race was on... everyone rushed to develop their own auto.
the iron warner / fmx was probably the last of the 1st-gen, surviving
until '80 in fords.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:49:07 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000001c72517$903582d0$a4dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Dodge fluid drive was as described, the Desoto version was a
semi-automatic. It seemed to be reliable as I remember just clunky. You
used a clutch to put it in gear from a stop OR it only had two forward
directions available on the column shift. Low which was the 2nd gear
position or second and high which was in the 3rd gear position and if
you needed to shift from low to high you had to use the clutch. But if
you drove it in high all of the time you just needed to clutch to put it
there. Once moving which was a simple as stepping on the gas to shift
from 2nd to 3rd you simply let up off the gas pedal and it would shift
automatically. It would also down shift using a passing gear type of set
up or automatically shift back to 2nd when you came to a stop. I really
had no problems with the transmission on the one I had nor do I remember
it being problematic. It was not a performance set up though.
Also as far as I can remember, most over drives were free wheeling above
a certain miles per hour, thus you could shift the manual transmission
by simply letting off the gas from 2nd to 3rd and back as the over
drives (I remember anyway) worked in 2nd and 3rd.
Another variation was the complete non-synchromesh or commonly known as
the Crash Box. To shift that set up on the move you had to become
proficient at a skillful 2 step dance of operating the clutch in double
clutch mode for down shifts and matching engine and road speed for up
shifts in order to shift anything at all to get it into gear with out
grinding or crashing the gears. Thus the knick name crash box. But once
mastered well you could shift with out the clutch at all once moving. I
drove one of those for many years.
As far as automatics go, there were a number of automatics and
semi-automatics from the late 30's on. Gm as mentioned with the
Hydramatic and Buick's Dynaflow were all late 30's I believe. Ford even
marketed one in 1940 or 41 but all sold cars were recalled and the 3
speed re-installed. Chrysler and other independents (Such as Hudson) did
the semi-automatic route and as mentioned over drives could be driven in
a semi automatic mode.
Not sure when the infamous B/W automatic was first seen, probably the
early 50's as used by a variety of people and a number of pre-selector
transmissions were around as a semi automatic dating from the early 30's
such as the one used by Cord and I am sure others.
John Mahoney's Packards from the so-called modern era is or was as I
understand it the only independent to develop there own fully automatic
transmission in the 50's and was used by Nash and Hudson on the Packard
derived V-8's I believe but it was a 2 speed automatic with a lock up
torque converter used as a 3 speed automatic and some what problematic
at best I believe.
All of these were efforts to eliminate shifting. An exercise relating to
be an uncouth chore (which lead to the first Corvette being a 2 speed
powerglide) which was also the reason why most if not all of the early 3
speed manuals had a non-synchromesh low. Who in their right mind would
want to shift to low on the fly? And it was also cheaper. Performance
oriented 4 speeds were really late in their introduction here in the
land of expressways and 5 and 6 speed manuals almost non-existent.
Now I see ads for 8 speed automatics! What a change and a far cry from
Buick 1 speed Dynaflow , the original and only slush-o-matic.
Now there is a big push to get the snowmobile variable speed automatics
out in the market. So far not overly successful. Audi, Saturn and others
in the last couple of years (now no longer offered). The Dutch Daf in
the 60's or so and one of the offerings in the Daimler Chrysler line up
in the last couple of years.
What next? A hole in the floor for a flintstone version of mystery
drive?
Have fun.
John
PS A number of those would be pure dangerous to place in the hands of
the un-initiated in a drive it your self format.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:25:40 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612211625.kBLGPeF21964@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
"
" Now there is a big push to get the snowmobile variable speed automatics
" out in the market. So far not overly successful. Audi, Saturn and others
" in the last couple of years (now no longer offered). The Dutch Daf in
" the 60's or so and one of the offerings in the Daimler Chrysler line up
" in the last couple of years.
daf is now owned by volvo. their 'variomatic' was successful because
the car was so small the engine was only about snowmobile size - iirc
a 600cc flat twin. like snowmobiles it was aimed at convenience; it
was not particularly efficient. scaling and improving it have not
been easy.
the subaru justy also had a variomatic-derived tranny, fairly
successful, but it isn't much larger than the daf was.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 8:37:47 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: John Elle <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <24828622.1166719067177.JavaMail.root@web18>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Someone and I can't remember who, was it White?, made a vairable transmission back in the 1910's that was a large heavy flywheel mounted to an enegine and the way the car was driven was the engine speed was a constant and you moved a lever which moved the drive along the face of the flywheel. Starting close to center for low speed and torque moving out toward the edge as speed increased.
I remember reading the artice that stated the things had so much torque you could put a front tire against a tree and the car would climb it vertically!
What I can't remember is the specifics of how it was made and worked nor who made the thing! I know I remember it was never mass produced. I assume it was due to a lack of reliabilty.
I always thought the concept was so simple that it couldn't possibly work!
For yeasr now I've wanted to drive on of the new variable trans cars to see what it felt like! I wonder if it as unusual a feeling as the E-stick! Nissan uses one in it's high horsepower Maximas, should be a blast to test drive!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- John Elle <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> The Dodge fluid drive was as described,
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:54:49 +0000
From: msproviero@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<122120061654.6558.458ABC5900009C9A0000199E2200750744019D0A0790019D9F9C03@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Well, I can tell you that the Saturn unit my g/f got rid of just plain sucked. They get "loud" when they go out of spec (like a starving power steering pump) and Saturn was forced to implement an extended warranty due to the almost routine failures of them. The service techs told her that its an ongoing problem and that she could expect to be back for ratio adjustment over and over again in the future. She got it fixed under warranty and traded it in against a 2007 non-variable drive Vue asap.
-Spro
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Someone and I can't remember who, was it White?, made a vairable transmission
> back in the 1910's that was a large heavy flywheel mounted to an enegine and the
> way the car was driven was the engine speed was a constant and you moved a lever
> which moved the drive along the face of the flywheel. Starting close to center
> for low speed and torque moving out toward the edge as speed increased.
> I remember reading the artice that stated the things had so much torque you
> could put a front tire against a tree and the car would climb it vertically!
> What I can't remember is the specifics of how it was made and worked nor who
> made the thing! I know I remember it was never mass produced. I assume it was
> due to a lack of reliabilty.
> I always thought the concept was so simple that it couldn't possibly work!
> For yeasr now I've wanted to drive on of the new variable trans cars to see what
> it felt like! I wonder if it as unusual a feeling as the E-stick! Nissan uses
> one in it's high horsepower Maximas, should be a blast to test drive!
> --
> Mark Price
> markprice242ATadelphia.net
> Morgantown, WV
>
>
> ---- John Elle wrote:
> > The Dodge fluid drive was as described,
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:23:17 +0500
From: "ROSS BLAIR" <bigbad69@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Tust the Midas Touch - if you're a Masochist -
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061221172320.5BE401024B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I had a similar warranty experience at Midas in the early 90's. One pipe had a hole in it, but every joint was rusted, so they said they had to replace the entire system. The muffler was free because it was under warranty, but the total cost would be about $250 (the car was worth about $500 at the time). I convinced them to give me the muffler but had to sign over the warranty. I went down the street to the auto parts store and bought the two pipes and clamps I needed and intalled the whole system myself for about $100.
Muffler shops in this area will tell you 2 years is about the life expectancy for an exhaust system due to the salt (and the cheap steel they use).
Ross Blair
69 BBO Javelin 390
Ottawa, Ont.
--
___________________________________________________
Search for products and services at:
http://search.mail.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 9:44:52 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Ebay Gremlin Item number: 260066423467
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <17902812.1166723092119.JavaMail.root@web18>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Has anyone looked at this Gremlin! WOW, someone buy that man some masking tape! It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, "Let no panel remain untouched" ! There does not appear to be one aligned or properly prepped and cleaned area on this entire car. Don't foegt to check out the snazzy blue seats and the cool racing accents on the quarter panels!
I kept flipping thru the pages of pictures expecting some redeeming quality to come to light, Alas Babylon, None appeared. :[
Ebay Item number: 260066423467
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:50:10 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612211750.kBLHoA122667@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" Someone and I can't remember who, was it White?, made a variable transmission back in the 1910's that was a large heavy flywheel mounted to an engine and the way the car was driven was the engine speed was a constant and you moved a lever which moved the drive along the face of the flywheel. Starting close to center for low speed and torque moving out toward the edge as speed increased.
" I remember reading the artice that stated the things had so much torque you could put a front tire against a tree and the car would climb it vertically!
" What I can't remember is the specifics of how it was made and worked nor who made the thing! I know I remember it was never mass produced. I assume it was due to a lack of reliabilty.
-probably- the driven disk slid along a splined shaft which took the
power out.
related schemes have been tried in recent decades; the most
interesting looked a little like a torque converter. imagine a bagel,
split in half and hollowed out. now imagine two wheels inside it on a
horizontal shaft crossing the middle, but free to roll independently.
the front half of the bagel turns, the wheels roll, and the back half
of the bagel turns the other way.
now imagine the shaft the wheels are on is two shafts, one for each,
and they are mounted in vertical yokes that can pivot like u-joints.
pivoting the wheels has to be coordinated, but toe them in and they
roll in the inner edge of the front bagel half and the outer edge of
the rear bagel half, producing speed reduction. toe them out and you
get speed multiplication.
the problem is that you have to make them extremely precisely and from
very hard materials to be efficient [because what you have is very
much like a ball bearing] so that you can run very high contact
pressures because slippage is death. monsanto even developed a
special lubricant that turns solid under extreme pressure [santotrac
iirc] but apparently the technology wasn't there yet or we'd all be
driving them.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:04:47 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Re; Another, E Stick, now Drivers
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000c01c7252a$83736360$a4dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Addressing the snowmobile version again, about 20 + years ago there were
industrial versions of this transmission that were rated as high as 200
hp so it would be logical that eventually it would see it's way back
into the automotive line when bugs were worked out or finances or
something. But to the best of my knowledge it has not been an
overwhelming success at present. But then again, the Model T 3 pedal 2
speed transmission was a high tech solution in 1905. Who woulda thunk
that the last time it would be used was in the 1927 Model T where by
then it was antiquated and inefficient. To be replaced by something
operated by hand!
John
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 8:58:45 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <8426402.1166720325262.JavaMail.root@web18>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Sounds about like I expected! I never said I would buy one!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- msproviero@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Well, I can tell you that the Saturn unit my g/f got rid of just plain sucked. They get "loud" when they go out of spec (like a starving power steering pump) and Saturn was forced to implement an extended warranty due to the almost routine failures of them. The service techs told her that its an ongoing problem and that she could expect to be back for ratio adjustment over and over again in the future. She got it fixed under warranty and traded it in against a 2007 non-variable drive Vue asap.
>
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:54:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Another Re; E Stick, now Drivers
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612211138290.14075@unit>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Nice summation of the wacky tranny stuff John!
The state-of-tune of engines has obviously changed wildly. People
thought nothing of putting a car in far-too-high gear and just
let it lug-lug-lug up to speed. My father drove everything
from VW Beetle to V8 Chevy van that way. If performance isn't
a concern, gas is dirt cheap, and no one sniffs tailpipes,
it's a pleasant way to operate a car.
Shifting requires two or three operable brain cells, a tiny bit
of attention, and some care for how the engine works. Clearly,
there's been a mad rush away from needing those things for
some time!
As I was poking through the 62 American TSM, I happened on the
igntion timing specs for the flathead and ovehead six:
flathead: 7 degrees total advance @2000
overhead: 12 degrees total advance @2100
Sure, lug that thing all day! With 7:1 compression it will
never ping. 1200 - 1800 rpm, full highway load? Why not! Just
can't be in a hurry, is all...
With old two-speed transmissions, this sort of tuning would be
necessary. With a closed-loop computer-driven car with an equally
smart 8-speed transmission there's no comparison possible,
but as good as that stuff is I really like having my hands,
butt and ears attached to the old stuff.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:06:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Ebay Gremlin Item number: 260066423467
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612211203530.14075@unit>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Mark Price wrote:
> Has anyone looked at this Gremlin! WOW, someone buy that man some masking tape! It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, "Let no panel remain untouched" ! There does not appear to be one aligned or properly prepped and cleaned area on this entire car. Don't foegt to check out the snazzy blue seats and the cool racing accents on the quarter panels!
That is so sad! Poor little Gremlin in an ugly dress!
I assume their "90 percent complete" means the blue and brown
interior is not intentional. Either of those colors alone is
bad enough, but together?! Vomitous.
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 48
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