AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 16
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 16
- From: amc-list-request@xxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 22:45:20 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Sandwich Maker)
2. Re: t-89/r10od (Sandwich Maker)
3. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Sandwich Maker)
4. Re: State of the Charity AMX (Savage, Pete)
5. Re: State of the Charity AMX (Widiker, John D)
6. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Mark Price)
7. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Mark Price)
8. Re: To Choke or Not to Choke (Mark Price)
9. Re: t-89/r10od (Mark Price)
10. 232 Trans into a '64 American.. (Jerijan)
11. Re: Old Seat Belts (Mark Price)
12. (no subject) (tbenvie@xxxxxxxxxxx)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:43:37 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612061943.kB6Jhbd17601@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM" <Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" I'm willing to bet the V-8 has a higher rpm stall converter than the
" six, so might want to get a new or rebuilt converter.
it might not be any different. i'm pretty sure i saw a crossover
between 232s and 290s in the mitchell interchange. the v8's higher
torque would give a higher stall.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:46:51 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] t-89/r10od
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612061946.kB6Jkpe17664@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM" <Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
"
" The T-85 was used as a HD trans behind the early sixes, I think.
i think you're thinking of the t-86, a totally different trans. the
t-85 was related to the t-89.
the t-86 had a nose likt the t-15, small almost-square pattern
different from the t-96, 4.65" retainer, long 1 1/8" input. won't fit
the stock 6 bell either. 6 bolt top cover like the t-14.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:02:08 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612062002.kB6K28A17770@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" I think the 2.53's will work. IIRC, Tom Bunsey had an American AMC 20
" axle he had swapped 2:21's into when I picked up the convertible from
" him. I may be wrong though, so don't quote me on that!
2.21s are an amc15 ratio; afaik 2.56 was as tall as the amc20 went.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:45:04 -0500
From: "Savage, Pete" <PSavage@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] State of the Charity AMX
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<BD261180E6D35F4D9D32F3E44FD3D901047B6B49@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
John,
I, for one, am glad that you are not concerned about what happened to the rare and hard to replace
parts that were provided along with the car!
However, can you really expect others to volunteer replacements when we have proven an inability to
manage what we already had?
I know it has tainted my view of this project. This project was intended to do good for kids who needed help
and we should have done a better job managing the assets! Plain and simple!
Now that I have flamed you are correct that this is just "water under the bridge" and we need to look forward to getting
the project complete. I would be interested in helping to provide a few parts, but will not do so until I see
that we understand how to manage the project.
Can we start with a complete list of what is with the car
and what is needed?
I am requesting a complete list!
If this can't define a complete list then how do we expect to ever get this project done.
Just my opinion...
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Widiker, John D
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:05 PM
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] State of the Charity AMX
I've been holding off posting an update for a little bit now, time to
fill you guys in with where the project is at and what's being done to
move it forward. Some of what I'm going to say is a rehash, some not,
here it is.
PR: I've sent information to Car Craft, Hot Rod and Popular Hot rodding
magazines, I am sending info to Hemmings Muscle Machines shortly to get
some coverage for the project and to solicite parts and donations. I'm
also meeting with a local newspaper to get an article on the car
shortly.
Parts currently being obtained: I'm working with Legendary to try to get
the interior soft parts, I'll update as things happen. A buddy also has
put me in touch with Summit Racing's PR department
Supplies obtained: I have gotten basecoat/clearcoat and primer donated
by our local paint shop for the purpose of painting the car the original
color.
Commitments for labor: Hedidit paint has committed to doing the body
work (more on that later) and painting of the AMX. They will be starting
that phase once we have removed mechanicals and gotten it to the point
they want to begin work. I'm currently talking to an automotive
stripping business to see if we might be able to get it down to a
workable point for free, I haven't heard back yet with a yes or no.
Parts that are missing that were seemingly there at one time
(disappeared at some point):
Tail lights
Tail light buckets
Center light (reverse light)
Center light bucket
Correct grill turn signals (nos set donated by Benvie)
All the trim for the front end of the car headlight/hood and fender
trim/bumper scoops
Missing parts that are currently needed and were not previously believed
to be with the car:
http://www.mattsoldcars.com/charityamx/partsneeded.html
More to be added from the spreadsheet we are putting together (don't
have the copy here like I thought I did)
Parts that are in rough shape that could be repaired, might be easier to
find decent examples or get them donated
Dashpad
Shifter (very worn)
All wood grain overlays (I could do custom but this is a stock
restoration so we need some)
Arm rests
Lock levers
Pull straps
Gauges faces are very faded
Many more that I'll post shortly
Body work we are correcting before paint can be applied:
Passenger door perfectly aligned to the front fender that's very much in
the wrong place (meaning the door and fender are both way off)
Rocker panels are VERY rough and mostly composed of filler at this time
(anyone has some it would be nice to weld them in)
Rear of roof panel is somewhat s shaped at this time, looks like someone
roughed in some filler then shot primer over it (looks BAD)
Hood skin is not connected to the hood right now except at the edges,
this is distorting the shape and we're reattaching the two before we
form more opinions
Finding body seams that were bondo'd over, using an original amx for
reference.
The guy who did this work no longer works for Zion and I'm not judging
their work by this car... It is however a long way from being ready for
paint. They did a very nice job putting the quarter panel on the car and
I've got no complaints about how it looks.
With regard to the missing parts listed above: I've been in touch with
Zion Auto Body, they don't remember these parts being on or with the car
when it arrived. They also state that it's possible they were there when
it arrived. Zion stated if anything turns up they will contact me and
we'll ship them to rejoin the car. I have no reason to think they would
do otherwise, nobody acted like a princess or got all offended when I
asked, I came away having respect for these guys.
I do want to take this opportunity to make one very clear statement if I
may. It does not matter to me a bit who misplaced this or any stuff, who
may have taken it, or broken it, or allowed it to be taken hostage by an
international drug ring, I furthermore don't care a bit where these
parts are currently unless they can be found. If they turn up we need
them in a bad way. I do care a great deal about making this car a
success, to me what's already happened is irrelevant, what I'm concerned
where we are going and concerned about getting what we need to finish
it. This stuff is not cheap, putting broken old stuff on the car is
pointless so we are left needing stuff that's rare and spendy when it's
nice. This is part of owning/restoring/liking a 1970 AMX and one of the
major pitfalls of this car.
The Charity AMX is a good STARTING point right now, it's not close to
saleable, it's not close to nice, it's honestly worth a few thousand
dollars right now and there is no way in hell some paint alone is going
to get it in an auction much less sold. HOWEVER when I stare at it with
my eyes squinted just enough I can see a beautiful car though and that's
enough right now.
My friends and I are willing to work it like our lives depend on this
car happening, unless we or somebody else gets lots of parts this car is
never going to be done. I'm working to get people donating and involved
from the outside of the amc hobby, that's something I can do besides
working on it.
I bet you are saying "I don't have the parts that are needed or a shop
to work on it in but I want to help...." if you want to take part of
the responsibility There are things you can do:
Compose an email (this one I sent is for us on the list, not outsiders)
and tell people about this project, ask your buddy or boss to throw a
$20 or whatever into the pot to help kids, it's the holiday season, no
better time. Frank has the purse and here are the details for how to
help him fill it:
There are two ways to donate money. The first is by mailing a check or
money order (please, no cash) to:
Frank Swygert/AMX
574 Roberta Avenue
Dover, DE 19901-4646
Phone 302-233-4925
The second is by credit card through PayPal. To make a credit card
donation, go to http://farna.home.att.net/purchase.html. Click on the
button for "Canada/Mexico/Overseas and All Other Purchases" (this is the
third one on the page). This will take you to the PayPal site where you
can make the donation. Be sure to indicate that this is a donation for
the project AMX.
If anyone has any issue with what I've said, or what's going on, or
what's missing I expect it to be dealt like grown up men or women, that
means posts to the list are factual and bring added value. I don't mind
criticism (in fact I should have had my sheets with me before even
starting this mail) and if it's going to bring value it's appropriate.
If anyone wants to attack anyone with things that aren't going to help
or have no relevance to moving ahead then deal with it off list, one of
my biggest fears has been starting a flame war by stating things about
this car when I have no idea which people have a hand or emotional
investment in it, thus starting a flame war.
Lets see how this mail goes and I'll send more updates shortly
~John
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:05:09 -0500
From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] State of the Charity AMX
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<053E34168692C4438533FE33E79C1A181233DB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Whole heartedly agreed, we've compiled a list of most of what is there,
and taken quite a few pictures. There is some disassembly to do and we
plan to add as we go, I'll gladly post pictures and a spreadsheet online
for accountability. Give me a few weeks to finalize what I've got,
compare it to my complete car to see what's missing and take additional
images.
It's my opinion that trying to "hunt down" the missing items will
derail/delay us further and not bear fruit, I wasn't there and therefore
I have nothing on which to formulate helpful opinions. Furthermore
finger pointing or insinuations would only further muddy the waters of a
project that's intended to help people.
Thank you for your opinions and suggestions Peter, I would not consider
that a flame post at all! I think added accountability is a step in the
right direction and will work to ensure it happens.
~John
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Savage, Pete
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:45 PM
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] State of the Charity AMX
John,
I, for one, am glad that you are not concerned about what happened to
the rare and hard to replace parts that were provided along with the
car!
However, can you really expect others to volunteer replacements when we
have proven an inability to manage what we already had?
I know it has tainted my view of this project. This project was
intended to do good for kids who needed help and we should have done a
better job managing the assets! Plain and simple!
Now that I have flamed you are correct that this is just "water under
the bridge" and we need to look forward to getting the project complete.
I would be interested in helping to provide a few parts, but will not do
so until I see that we understand how to manage the project.
Can we start with a complete list of what is with the car and what is
needed?
I am requesting a complete list!
If this can't define a complete list then how do we expect to ever get
this project done.
Just my opinion...
Peter
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:22:29 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <23437884.1165440149705.JavaMail.root@web19>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Well, if you've got enough gray matter left to remember all this stuff, more power to you! 2.56 it must of been! I told you not to quote me on it!
:]
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Sandwich Maker <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> " From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "
> " I think the 2.53's will work. IIRC, Tom Bunsey had an American AMC 20
> " axle he had swapped 2:21's into when I picked up the convertible from
> " him. I may be wrong though, so don't quote me on that!
>
> 2.21s are an amc15 ratio; afaik 2.56 was as tall as the amc20 went.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Andrew Hay the genius nature
> internet rambler is to see what all have seen
> adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:35:33 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <5204755.1165440933658.JavaMail.root@web19>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Third.
The high axles only work in highway use.
My mom's 83 Concord 4 door with a 258 six, lockup auto trans 2.21 gears got 28mpg cruising the flat lands of ohio at 70mph when it was new.
It was a pig in the hills of western Pa though.
Dad changed it over to 2.79 and gas mileage rose in town and the mountains. Mpg dropped on the highway, but mom never took it out of town so who cared!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
>
> > Someone mentioned using this trans, or rather a lock-up version and a
> > high gear (2.53 or so) in the rear. I know AMC used a high gear like
> > that in Spirits and possibly Concords to get fuel mileage up. But I have
> > to tell you, that only works for highway mileage. In town mileage
> > suffers with such a high gear. I'd stick with something like a 3.08, no
> > higher than a 2.73. The auto does multiply engine torque by about 3:1,
> > so that helps get the car moving, but a little more gear surely won't
> > hurt. Those 2.53 geared cars are just a bit on the sluggish side taking
> > off. Unless you're planning on a lot of highway cruising you'll
> > appreciate a little more gear.
>
> I'm with Frank here --
>
> I run 25" tires (205/70-R14's), a 2.73:1 axle, and an early 904
> (non-lock up), and a 258 with the later aluminum intake, a 2
> bbl Weber, 2.5" exhaust turbo muffler, Duraspark II ignition,
> and careful tuning -- quicker than stock but not that much.
>
> The 70 Hornet is a lot lighter than later cars, no side-impact
> panels in the doors etc, so it's pretty much a 60's American,
> chassis-wise.
>
> 2.73:1 is as steep as I'd want to go; it's about the right
> compromise overall. It really wants a lower first gear; the
> motor pulls hard, but the overall ratio in first is steep (it
> was designed as an economy car...). It will just barely smoke
> the tires from dead stop.
>
> Yet performance at highway speeds is excellent; 50 - 80 mph,
> I'm faster than most things on the road, it pulls like hell
> to 90mph! But that's because 68mph = 2500 rpm, a bit fast for
> maximum mileage... I feel like 2000 - 2100 for 65mph would be
> better for mileage, but of course then performance would suffer
> if I just changed the axle to get that.
>
> AMC knew what it was doing; it picked a pretty good combo for
> overall performance and mileage given a big inefficient six
> and an inexpensive 3-speed auto trans. What did this car cost
> new, $2500?!
>
>
> The "ideal" combo for me would be a 15% lower total first-gear
> overall ratio, yet 2000 rpm at 65mph. A four speed and
> axle-juggling would get that (or my T150+OD).
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:41:08 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] To Choke or Not to Choke
To: hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx, amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <11654709.1165441268741.JavaMail.root@web19>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dead mice in the heater box and above the hardboard headliners also work well for a good choke!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Brien Tourville <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Nick Lenarz wrote:
>
> > The NEW problem is that it won't idle when cold.
>
> > Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>
> <>
>
>
> I;ve found Yak Dung, spread gingerly over
> the exhaust manifold and heat riser while bouncing
> the butterfly and chanting: 'Putin-Putin' holds promise...
> anyone with similar results ?
>
>
> =Bt=
> milnersXcoupe
> "The Heretic"
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:51:37 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] t-89/r10od
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <32125513.1165441897052.JavaMail.root@web19>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Jim, I think that because the input is longer on this trans it would be fairly straght forward to make an adapter to bolt it on to the 196. Not sure it's worth the effort, good trans but how heavy is it and what all else will need adapted is beyond my knowledge. Just a thought!
Or, Talk Andrew Hay out of his bellhousing! I think he had one!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- BUS-ENG <jay@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have direct experience with
> this transmission behind a 232?
>
> What would be involved with swapping
> this unit with the T-14 (non-OD)
> currently in my '69 American wagon?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jay
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:21:15 -0500
From: "Jerijan" <jerijan@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 232 Trans into a '64 American..
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <004201c71984$d82131a0$640fa8c0@gremlin>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have just completed the trans conversion from a larger/later (1970 Hornet) transmisison.
You are correct...the Yoke MUST be changed.
I've found a place in Adams, Massachusetts to do the job for an amazing $59.58. He had quoted me $45 but somewhere along the line it went up a bit..but still, '$60' is still a dammed good price..
He took the larger yoke from the larger car's tranny (This is the yoke onto the output shaft...the baby one from the '64 is splined differently), cut both off their respective drive shafts, and rewelded, balanced it unto the American's (Mine is a '65).
If you wish, and cannot find someone 'your way' to do this, I can supply you with a drop point (if they don't ship it themselves) so they can do it for you..
You ship it to me (or them if they do do shipping), they'll do it, and one of us'ns will ship 'er back to you...
Shipping ought be no more than $15 each direction (Add $30 to the $60 and you get a full job done for a mere $90~!_)
Doing this with a later engine you missed all the fun of changing the input shaft, bell's and other stuff over and over until you discovered to correct combination for 'fitage' into the '65 (or '64 in your case!).
Anyway, Have fun folks,
Jerijan
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:45:11 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Old Seat Belts
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <30901569.1165441511115.JavaMail.root@web19>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
---- "Swygert wrote:
> Looks like a good product. If you're going to be keeping the kids for a
> while [SNIP]
Uh, did I miss something here? What's he planning on doing with the kids?!!!!!
:] LOL
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 22:45:09 +0000
From: tbenvie@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] (no subject)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<120620062245.28444.457747F50006ED3B00006F1C22092299270A0790020A0D9B@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Thank you for the update on the car. It seems to me the car is in a great place with people that have a great and positive attitude towards finishing this project.. Though there seems to be some things missing again, they do not seem like they are that rare a part to make the project insurmountable. It would be great if the national exposure from the press happens-this may make it easier to get some donations. For instance, a friend just had Hurst rebuild his shifter for a 70 AMX and I think it was just over $100 to include rechroming the handle. though i no longer have any parts to give to this project, I still have the door data plate and driver's door decal I cut off the original rusted door.
Thank you for the update and enthusiasm to finish this project.
--
Thomas M. Benvie
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 16
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