Re: [Amc-list] Hydrogen Power (was Holley Carb Questions .... )

[Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx]

Or, we could inhale the gas out of whip cream cans and not worry about it ! :]

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
" I was different before people dared to be different" 

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Kelly Hardie" <ramblinguy.kelly@xxxxxxxxx>
> Nu uh. We just gotta start drilling hydrogen wells, or is it mines?
> 
> Kelly
> 
> On 9/10/07, Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx <Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Well, That settles it....
> >
> > We're all Screwed!
> >
> > --
> > Mark Price
> > Morgantown, WV
> > 1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
> > " I was different before people dared to be different"
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
> > > " From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
> > > "
> > > " The real, underlying fundamental problem is that our entire world is
> > built
> > > " upon "fuel" as in sticks gathered in the forest that fell there
> > without any
> > > " investment of energy or work on our part some time in the past -- in
> > the form
> > > " of fossil fuel. It's like spending a non-growth inheritance, or next
> > month's
> > > " rent money.
> > >
> > > a hunter-gatherer fuel economy
> > >
> > > " Every single other source of energy requires converting an existing
> > source
> > > " (sun, plants, whatever) into a transmissible or storable form.
> > >
> > > a fuel farming economy
> > >
> > > " There's no way around the no-free-lunch thing. Period. None.
> > >
> > > yupper!  you cannot negotiate with the universe about the laws of
> > > physics.
> > >
> > > " Corn-based alcohol is a scam for politicians and oil companies. If
> > every
> > > " square hectare of fertile soil in the US was converted to corn
> > production,
> > > " the resulting alcohol would meet no more than 15% of US energy needs.
> > >
> > > i'm not sure this is right - but there -is- a fundamental flaw in
> > > using near-food-grade produce as fuel.  adm [broker for 9/10 of the
> > > crop] has to be snickering all the way to the bank.
> > >
> > > research is only just beginning on fuel crops.  more is needed.  and
> > > the issue of competition for food acreage could indeed be a serious
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > " Corn-based alcohol is a storage method for solar energy plus the
> > energy it
> > > " takes to produce all the components, which it turns out, is very high.
> > >
> > > see the food reference above.  goals are different; quality and safety
> > > are paramount for food; efficiency is not.
> > >
> > > " Hydrogen bonds very tightly to many elements. It's extremely hard to
> > break a
> > > " chemical molecular bond. It takes a fixed and finite amount of energy,
> > > " period. It's not reducable. Many cracking systems have other
> > inefficiencies,
> > > " and these can be improved, but it will always take more energy to
> > split
> > > " water -- or any other H2 compound -- than it produces. It's inarguable
> > > " physics.
> > >
> > > this is true of -every- compound.  it's called entropy.
> > >
> > > " Draw your own conclusions. Mine are, reduction of unbelievably stupid
> > energy
> > > " consumption in the first place. We're incredibly stupid and wasteful
> > as a
> > > " race/culture (the overall human one). People have been tricked into
> > > " thinking "conservation" means "giving up" but that's pure politics.
> > > " Energy-neutrality would certainly mean a wholesale revolution in
> > literally
> > > " everyone's world.
> > > "
> > > " I don't have much hope for this being fixed. There's too much stuff
> > with a
> > > " stake in the current infrastructure.
> > >
> > > i sadly agree.  human nature is selfish and short-sighted, most
> > > especially as community sizes increase and it becomes easier and
> > > easier to leave the larger issues to 'someone else' - there are plenty
> > > of someone elses, right?
> > >
> > > " On Friday 07 September 2007 20:15:07 Frank Swygert wrote:
> > > " > Using hydrogen in a fuel cell to create electricity is supposed to
> > be much
> > > " > more efficient than burning the gas directly. That's why the fuel
> > cell cars
> > > " > from GM.
> > >
> > > so far, so good.  fuel cells can turn h2 into electricity extremely
> > > efficiently, as much as 80% or better.
> > >
> > > only the h2 can be so used though - fuel cells that run on alcohol,
> > > natural gas, etc just throw the carbon and its energy away.  so do the
> > > refuelling stations that generate h2 from natural gas.  this is
> > > efficient?  non polluting?  energy reducing?
> > >
> > > " > It would be easy to convert gas stations that way too -- just pump
> > > " > the chemical(s) instead of gasoline. So the existing infrastructure
> > could
> > > " > be used, lessening costs impact.
> > >
> > > this is snake oil, on someone's part.  you can't just pump h2 through
> > > gas pipelines.
> > > 1. the molecule is so small it'll whiz through cracks ch4 [natural
> > >    gas, mostly] won't even see.
> > > 2. h2 is absorbed directly into the steel, producing a metallurgical
> > >    phenomenon called 'hydrogen embrittlement'.  this is not a good
> > >    thing for pipelines.
> > >
> > > you could pump water or something else and electrical power, and make
> > > the h2 at the refuelling station, but that's a loss; natural gas can
> > > transmit energy over long distance more efficiently than high tension
> > > power lines.  you'd be better off making the h2 [from water, not
> > > natural gas!] at the minehead and gasifying the coal or tar sands and
> > > pumping that.
> > > ________________________________________________________________________
> > > Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
> > > internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
> > > adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought
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