AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 64

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: AMC Magazine a readers report! (farna@xxxxxxx)
   2. Article on the impact of ethanol on fuel tanks and	rubber
      hoses (Dan E. Curtis)
   3. Can anyone identify which pistons these are (Dan Curtis)
   4. Re: 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs (Keith)
   5. Re: 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs (KENT ANDERSON)
   6. Small V8 Engine - 343 c.i. - Runs Great - $800 (Keith)
   7. 1960 american rambler (Keith)
   8. AMC INK (namdra@xxxxxxxx)
   9. Re: AMC Nationals (Armand Eshleman)
  10. another amc brand recycled (Pat Doyle)
  11. Re: 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs (Keith)
  12. Re: 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs (Tom Jennings)
  13. Re: another amc brand recycled (Tom Jennings)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:43:29 +0000
From: farna@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC Magazine a readers report!
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
	<123020061243.3584.45965EF10003CC9000000E0021612436460E029D0E00@xxxxxxx>
	



--
Thanks a lot John! I've been at it for almost 10 years now, should have learned something!! I hope you enjoy the subscription. I've got four subscriptions from the free issue send out already -- a few of you decided a day or two after to go ahead and subscribe. That was more than I expected immediately, I figured most would want to think about it for a week. I'll send out a "tickler" to those who got a free issue at the end of the month. You know how we all tend to think we're going to do something then lay it aside and...

For those who missed the post, I offered to send out a free PDF file issue to anyone who requested it before Christmas. I forgot my own exact deadline now! Well, anyway, I'll extend the offer to requests received before the end of the year. I've sent out 54 so far, a few more won't hurt!

For subscribers, the hard copy went to the post office two days ago, should be there sometime next week If not in your hands by 10 January LET ME KNOW!! I can;t send out another unless you do!

Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars" 
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
(free download available!)

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>

I just spent some time reading a bit of my new AMC magazine. Thanks
Frank, it reads quite well I will have to admit. For those of you who
have not got one yet, you have missed something enjoyable. 
Nuff said. 
John.
 


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 6:57:58 -0700
From: "Dan E. Curtis" <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Article on the impact of ethanol on fuel tanks and
	rubber hoses
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
	<3503925.1167487078678.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I would strongly urge anyone with an older car and using new ethanol content gasoline to read the following article published by a national marine engineer association. Please note the last paragraph and the comment about older rubber fuel hoses and the impact of ethanol on those as well although age is as likely a problem for old rubber fuel hoses as ethanol so they should be replaced with new rubber fuel hose regardless of the type of fuel being used.

This article is not meant to be a chicken little cry that sky is falling.  Rather, it is meant to help people become more aware that although the issues with ethanol are real, there are fairly easy and readily available steps that can be taken so as to not incur problems.  

Bottom line on the gel coat issue is that the curing process for fiberglass gel coat results in a natural difference in the rate of resin curing and those parts of the gel coat that are not fully cured have been identified as being highly susceptible to being dissolved when using ethanol additive fuels, particularly with greater than 10% ethanol content.  

For those of us in the old car hobby, the bigger and more likely impact of the new fuel mix is that our cars often sit for prolonged periods of time which results in the ethanol, a natural water absorbing compound, collecting water to the point that it may separate from the fuel as stated in my earlier post. As also stated in my earlier post, the best way to avoid this is to use the newer engineered fuel preservatives that are specifically designed to eliminate the water absorption issue from the ethanol mixed fuels that are becoming the norm around the country.

The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems 

The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use of marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by volume. This position is based on safety and durability concerns and supported by many well documented studies. 

According to state boating registrations, there are over 12 million recreational boats in the United States. Boat builders utilize five types of materials to fabricate fuel tanks. These are aluminum, steel, cross-link polyethylene, high density polyethylene and fiberglass. For a rough estimate of today?s numbers, there are approximately four million boats that have aluminum fuel tanks; approximately seven million have steel or polyethylene tanks, and less than one million have fiberglass tanks. The data clearly indicates that the increased use of ethanol in gasoline has raised safety and durability issues for aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks. 

Aluminum Fuel Tanks 

In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased. 

There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aw!
 are of a leak until it was too late. . 

The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank. 



Fiberglass Fuel Tanks 

NMMA is in the early stage of evaluating the effects that ethanol in gasoline has on fiberglass tanks. Boat U.S., the boater advocacy association, recently issue a consumer alert reporting that owners of older yachts have experienced leaking fiberglass fuel tanks. There have also been reports of heavy black deposits on the intake valves of marine engines resulting in bent push rods, pistons and valves. Some of the preliminary analysis conducted by an independent lab found the deposits to be di-iso octyl phalate, a chemical found in the resin, gel coat and filler used to make fiberglass fuel tanks. 

An initial theory is that when ethanol is introduced to the fuel tank the very small ethanol molecules diffuse into pores between the resin where they dissolve the unreacted phalates. Since the phalates are in solution they are able to pass through the fuel line filters. These phalates have exceptionally high temperature stability and remain intact when the fuel evaporates in the carburetor or undergo only partial decomposition in the combustion chamber thus creating the heavy black deposits on the engine?s intake valves. 

Unlike aluminum, NMMA has yet to identify the effect that ethanol in fuel has on the tanks integrity or even the root cause of dissolved phalates. The theory is that it is being caused by ethanol and we know that ethanol dissolves phalates, but more testing is currently being conducted. 

Conclusion 

As stated in the opening paragraph, the NMMA has serious safety and durability concerns with the incremental increase in ethanol content in gasoline motor fuel. The majority of marine engines in use today are open loop systems that are designed, engineered and calibrated at the factory to operate with fuel containing either 10% MTBE or ethanol. Changing the fuel that these engines were designed, engineered and calibrated for will negatively effect drivability, exhaust and evaporative emissions, and potentially damage the components. 

While these issues are significant, the boaters have a far more serious issue. The available data indicates that aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks and butyl rubber fuel hoses that are currently being used will fail if the ethanol content is increased to 20%. That is not an emissions issue; it is not a drivability or durability issue. It is an issue that needs to be taken far more seriously. It is a threat to the health and safety of the boaters in your state. 

--
Best Regards,
Dan Curtis
d.curtis@xxxxxxx
602 317 2018



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 09:37:04 -0700
From: "Dan Curtis" <d.curtis@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Can anyone identify which pistons these are
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000301c72c30$bd653f50$0600a8c0@D14DCP61>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

I can't quite figure out which pistons are in this 390 motor that  I am 
buying with the SC/Rambler behind it. They are reported to be .040 over but 
I have never seen this particular design.  Has anyone on the list seen this 
setup before?

http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h170/Donutblue/A%20theme%20SC%20Rambler/?action=view&current=DSCF0024.jpg

http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h170/Donutblue/A%20theme%20SC%20Rambler/?action=view&current=DSCF0025.jpg

Regards,
Dan Curtis
d.curtis@xxxxxxx
602-317-2018 



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 09:47:55 -0800
From: "Keith" <55fordf100@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001101c72c3a$a2cb0d50$6401a8c0@home1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

 Since I had the dash out, I hooked up 12VDC to the dash light circuit. I first checked to see how hot the 168 bulbs (2 CP) got by holding them in my hand. I then did the same with the 192 bulbs (3 CP). The 192 bulbs were warm like the 168's, but not hot to the touch. Certainly not a conclusive test, but I suspect if I can hold them, then the platic indicator covers shouldn't melt (I think). Guess I will find out. BTW, the 192, made the dash backlighting real nice. 

Keith
65 Marlin
San Diego
Re: [AMC-List] 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs

Date: Friday, December 29, 2006 05:53 PM
From: Arfon <Arfon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

I've wanted to put LEDs in my panels but it hasn't been high on the list...

The issue with LEDs are that they are not omni-directional.  My 67s have
alot of illumination done through the edge of clear plexiglass (light
pipes).  LEDs just shoot straight up.  Not sure of the answer.


As for the heat of 168s. Dunno.  The heat will be directly proportional to
the current draw so, if 168s pull a significant more amount of current, the
heat will be significantly more.

Try this...  Take a 158, impede airflow around it (a towel, in a small box
or etcetera), put 12V across it and measure the temperature.  Do the same
with a 168 and see how much hotter it is.----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith 
  To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:22 PM
  Subject: 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs


  I was wondering why my instrument panel bulbs for the backlighting seemed to be a little dim (typical of old 60's car...I think). I have a mixture of 158 (stock) and 194 bulbs which appear to be comparable per the information on this web page:

  http://www.theherd.com/articles/bulbs.html

  I am thinking about going to either LED replacements or the 168 bulbs, A little worried the 168 bulbs may bet a little too hot. Anyone had experience in this area?

  Keith

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:57:58 -0500
From: "KENT ANDERSON" <65marlin327@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001101c72c3c$0b0fc030$6400a8c0@SONY>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

When my Marlin popped fuses like candy, I discovered it was the light switch that was shorting out.  Ever since I replaced the switch, my dash lights are nice and bright, and no more blown fuses, which means I always have tail lights, now, too!  Just a suggestion.  Those things do wear out.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:03:14 -0800
From: "Keith" <55fordf100@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Small V8 Engine - 343 c.i. - Runs Great - $800
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000a01c72c3c$c6e6c1a0$6401a8c0@home1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Found on San Diego Craigs List:

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/pts/255046771.html

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:16:30 -0800
From: "Keith" <55fordf100@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 1960 american rambler
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001501c72c3e$a16788e0$6401a8c0@home1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

One owner....Too bad there isn't any pics.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/car/254847749.html

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:24:13 -0600
From: namdra@xxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC INK
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061230.122413.-16580683.0.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

The Feb. 2007 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines does a 6-page article on
the 57 Rambler Rebel. Also, they show a pic of a low mileage 7-0 T/A
Javelin that will go on the block at the upcoming Russo & Steele Auction
in Scottsdale, AZ. They also mention a 74 Jav/AMX, 401 & a customized 73
Jav/AMX will also be on the block at the same auction. Plus a "B"{ model
69 SC/Rambler will be on the block at the Barrett-Jackson auction.

Today on Spike TV's "Muscle" show, they showed a 69 SC/Rambler and a 68
AMX.


Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA     NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
          JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!
'07 AMC NATIONALS - Sep. 6-8, 2007 - Cordova Dragway Park, Cordova, IL
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974,  NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 13:06:58 -0600
From: "Armand Eshleman" <aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC Nationals
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <002d01c72c45$ae8277e0$6601a8c0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Jock,
OH Wow!! I did not realize it was as close as the quad cities and then
north!!
I figured it would be on the Eastern IL state line. Mapquest peaked my
curiosity
but you've confirmed it!
I may be able to get there this September.

I'll be sending you my home address Jock, please send me information on
joining NAMDRA.

Even though my first love is road racing, watching and seeing that many
AMC's
together and racing has got to be awesome.
AE



Armand,
  You are correct, Cordova, IL is located north of the Quad Cities, along
the Mississippi River. The Cordova Dragway Park is just north of Cordova,
IL on RT.#84. The track is right along the highway where you can actually
see them racing if you are driving by!

If anyone wants to check out more about Cordova Dragway Park, go to
www.cordovadrag.com.

BTW, Cordova Dragway Park has switched from being an IHRA track to a NHRA
track starting 1-1-07.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:52:33 -0600 "Armand Eshleman"
<aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> Is Cordova IL located north of the Quad Cities right on the
> Mississippi
> River?
>
> thanks,
> Armand
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
>


Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA     NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
          JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!
'07 AMC NATIONALS - Sep. 6-8, 2007 - Cordova Dragway Park, Cordova, IL
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974,  NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766

------------------------------

________



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:19:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "Pat Doyle" <javelinman@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] another amc brand recycled
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061230191908.0B0638B3CA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



Looks like another AMC nameplate is being recycled
like Chrysler did last year with the hornet name on its
auto show concept.

now its Nissan's turn
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/12/nissan_rogue.html

Pat Doyle


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!




------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:53:47 -0800
From: "Keith" <55fordf100@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: 65marlin327@xxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000b01c72c4c$38c4b2a0$6401a8c0@home1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Kent,
  Thanks for the advice.  I did pull the light switch out and cleaned the contact point for the variable resistor with a burnishing tool. That did help some (no more dead spots).  The light for the center console was nice and bright at full illumination, so I wsn't suspecting the light switch since it is on the same circuit (through the light switch). Actually, I am not really sure how bright these lights should be. I know I wasn't a bright in the 60's, so I am guessing the dash lights were a little dimmer than what we are used to today.

Keith
Re: [AMC-List] 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs

Date: Saturday, December 30, 2006 12:57 PM
From: KENT ANDERSON <65marlin327@xxxxxxxxxxx>

When my Marlin popped fuses like candy, I discovered it was the light switch
that was shorting out.  Ever since I replaced the switch, my dash lights are
nice and bright, and no more blown fuses, which means I always have tail
lights, now, too!  Just a suggestion.  Those things do wear out.

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:48:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 65 Marlin Instrument Bulbs
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612301241260.1264@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006, Keith wrote:

> 
> Since I had the dash out, I hooked up 12VDC to the dash light circuit. I first checked to see how hot the 168 bulbs (2 CP) got by holding them in my hand. I then did the same with the 192 bulbs (3 CP). The 192 bulbs were warm like the 168's, but not hot to the touch. Certainly not a conclusive test, but I suspect if I can hold them, then the platic indicator covers shouldn't melt (I think). Guess I will find out. BTW, the 192, made the dash backlighting real nice.

Whenever I've taken dash gauges apart, they're usually darkened
by dust and smoke pumped through them by hot air off the
lamps. It's really noticiable; lots of sooty dust around the
lamps, more over than under. Most of it washes off, some is
permanently affixed to the plastic and sometimes aluminum. The
cheap plastics used also discolor from lamp heat and age.

When I re-did the gauges in my Hornet, I scrubbed and repainted
stuff. I'm moving to all-LED internal lighting (requiresd
makin diffusers etc). I did the center heater/AC control in
LEDs (edge-lit plexiglas) and the white LED color makes the
factory style light bulbs -- new bulbs and cleaned plastic --
look like dim yellow camp fires.


It's funny this contrast. I really like the old stuff, which
is generally dim, yellowish incandescent lamps, subdued colors,
mechanical pointers... but I also like the bright, crisp modern
LED stuff (when its not cheap flat-panel silkscreened plastic)
but the juxtaposition of those two, in the same car, just
looks awful. Gotta go one or the other.



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:50:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] another amc brand recycled
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612301249280.1264@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006, Pat Doyle wrote:

> Looks like another AMC nameplate is being recycled
> like Chrysler did last year with the hornet name on its
> auto show concept.
>
> now its Nissan's turn
> http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/12/nissan_rogue.html

Aww crap, an SUV? Sheesh. They all look like overinflated beach
toys, I can barely tell them apart.



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
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http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list


End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 64
****************************************