AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 37

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Need info on small bore 401 blcok (Tom Jennings)
   2. Re: Floor mounted shifter... (Tom Jennings)
   3. Re: Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate (Tom Jennings)
   4. 401x Race Cylinder Block (Brien Tourville)
   5. An old song is a good song? (Mahoney, John)
   6. Re: An old song is a good song? (Sandwich Maker)
   7. Re; An old song is a good song? (John Elle)
   8. Lego 73 Hornet! (John Elle)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:09:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Need info on small bore 401 blcok
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612151107470.8539@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:

> I have an article describing the Indy stock block engines. It states a
> special 401 casting with 3.75" bore for an engine size somewhere in the
> 200-250 cubic inch range. Will have to look up the article tonight for
> more details -- it's easy to get to. It also mentions aftermarket main
> caps. Has to be that block casting unless the block has been sleeved.
> 

> Date: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:52 PM
> From: Nick ALFANO <71amx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> 
> Anyone have any information on a 401 block with an X
> above the displacement casting and only a 3.750 bore.
> There is also 401 cast into the intake valley.  It has
> very large water jackets and splayed main caps.  It
> might have been an endurance engine for one of the
> racing sanctions with a long stroke and small bore.

If I had the $$$$ I'd send you my 181ci Indy six, and you could
build up both and race 'em agin each other!



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:12:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Floor mounted shifter...
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612151110110.8539@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:

> I knew I'd seen a Hurst floor mount shifter! It's the Master Shift three
> speed for 69-74 Ford and 71-87 GM vans. I'm not sure if the Indy
> Qualifier mounts to the floor or not, but thought it did (no instruction
> sheet for that one, and the pics in the catalog don't show enough to
> tell). 


I had a Master Shift mounted on a T14 in my 1970 Hornet. It's a
"universal" shifter, meaning it fits nothing equally well :-)
Took a whole afternoon of rod-bending to get it to fit right,
and I think I had to cut ears off the plate, but it's otherwise
pretty straightforward. Got it on ePay as an unused kit (minus
some docs) pretty cheap. They're around.

Three-speed though. They're harder to find than 4-speed
shifters. If you ahve the trans out of the car fitting it all
is a breeze. Hacksaw, vise, propane torch, drill.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:15:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612151113140.8539@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, John Elle wrote:

> The only verified bad flex plate I ever had on an automobile
> I purchased the car with it and sold it many years later
> with the flex plate still in it. It had radial cracks running
> out from the center hub.  Of course it was a Cheby.

The flexplate on the '73 Hornet I took the motor out had the
same type cracks; it probably made a noise but it fit together
like gear teeth so I don't think it mattered to the P.O.; it
couldn't walk around because the crack was under the bolt heads.

Even that wouldn't hurt the transmission!



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:09:52 -0500
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 401x Race Cylinder Block
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <4582BAC0.14755.D9802E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII




On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Nick ALFANO wrote:

> I would tend to go along with you that they didn't
> really exist except I inspected it yesterday.  It does
> have the 401 cast into the side of the block, there
> definitely is an "X" stamped above the casting and it
> is a 3.750 bore.  The water jackets are much larger
> than a normal AMC V8.  Looking at the size of them, I
> doubt this engine could be bored more than .060 over
> the 3.750 bore.  The oil return holes in the intake
> valley are plugged and it had 4 bolt mains at some
> point in it's life.  The part number shows it is a 401
> but the bore is definitely not.  There is also "401"
> cast into the valley section of the block.  This is
> not some homemade job.  It is definitely cast into the
> block.  The casting marks are much more pronounced on
> this block than normal.  The block has been tanked and
> blasted down to a bare casting so there is no hiding
> what is there. 


From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>

Wow, that's pretty spectacular. Where did you get it? Where
did it come from?

Where there heads that came with it?


<>


with the lifter valley returns plugged - she sported
a dry sump with a scavenging system at one time.

biggest valve would be a 1.9 ? - based on a 304 
head / bore size.

does the owners have any trackable background on
the block ?

would make a great TURBO motor - what do the 
current owners have in mind ?

[ one nutt or two, left hand, right arm, first newborn ? ]

  
        =Bt=
  milnersXcoupe
   "The Heretic"



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:57:04 -0500
From: "Mahoney, John" <jmahoney@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] An old song is a good song?
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<BFF496024CD8E8499845576906CA0F190D3023@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Away awhile, too busy: gradually getting up to speed.  In New York, Los Angeles (Buick bash at ACC --- woo-woo --- meet the Tiger!), here for a week, away again: lots more work to do.  After her hard month (Bologna, Rome, Naples, Milan, Mannheim, Berlin, Lucerne, London, and Munich) in Europe, Renee sang in Stockholm Friday

http://tinyurl.com/y497wf

and Oslo Monday (pic six in "Bildeserie: Nobelfesten")

http://tinyurl.com/y752ba

and I attended --- a "once-in-a-lifetime" thing, maybe.  But everyone is headed home for the holidays (or, following three -more- jobs, will be...)     

http://tinyurl.com/yetsd3

http://tinyurl.com/yz2g7c

http://tinyurl.com/yn58pq

with three weeks to relax before the cars hit the paycheck roads again.

http://tinyurl.com/yms7q4

http://tinyurl.com/ygemu5  

Life is working for a living.  Living is looking at old cars like AMCs.

It was interesting how really irrelevant AMC can seem --- if you're not selling, servicing, driving, or, like Truesdell in current MTC* (his "Musclecars on Route 66" includes the AMC in nine [of twenty-six total...] images --- even though it drove only the final [Winslow to Santa Monica] segment: that's a fan of AMC!) when working for a living by writing and photographing them.  Knowing that some Scandinavians like big old American machines, I wondered if any "AMC moments" would be seen.  Uh, nope, but -Packard- certainly seems to be alive and kicking --- wherever I travel.  It's as if it transpired being that "dead independent" and Packard really reigns supreme.

Maybe it has something to do with quantity and quality: ex-big, ex-best.

But it doesn't matter, really.

*11-12/06 issue also has a [1964-vintage] AMC photo in following piece.

And 1/07 MT has last-page (168) last word including AMC: "...long gone... two Plymouths, two AMCs and the Olds..."

And 1/07 C&D wonders if the Honda Remix is "...the next Gremlin..."  Maybe.    

At least they still mention AMC.

I don't have time to click back before this week, thus anything I write will probably read as stupidity.  So be it.  As they said ~1946, SNAFU.

What would be anathematic for Packard, is cool for AMC.  

>>I was surfing today and happened across this website...

Old news is no news when lost somewhere along the route.

>>I would not trust anything on that page.  It was never finished...

Old ways are no way when less somehow results from more.

But since most of the same folks are discussing the same AMC, it's go.

>>a new mini SUV looking car, AWD. Guess what it's called -- SX-4!!!

Almost: lose the hyphen.

http://www.suzukisx4.com/   

Whereas when you see it --- in just about two weeks coming --- another Japanese maker will go full tilt (or Bevel, if you prefer...) with a new Rogue --- a car that, I suspect, should prove a simply stellar seller. 

"This small crossover SUV will show our continued innovation and excitement.  We have high expectations for this product and cannot wait to unveil it to the world."

 --- Larry Dominique, VP, Product Planning, Nissan North America, Inc.

(Except, that is, the world that thinks the best small SAV is a BMW X3.

If you remember anything I wrote about Nissan ten years ago, you get a gold star --- and, maybe --- a gold bar in your retirement fund kitty.)

Nissan is, what could have been, the last [non-lethal] chapter of AMC.

It's too bad AMC didn't hire better writers

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6624971

Or let them drink at work a little bit more.

http://tinyurl.com/y6q75n

(Hey, hold your 401X Race Block horses, just an AMC joke...)

(And don't forget that the '07 Jeep Compass originally wasd to be named Jeep -Scout- --- which would've been a crossover in more ways than one.

>>
the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that all inline
sixes are internally balanced by their very nature.
<<

Sometimes: depends on when.

http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/harmonics.htm



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:57:17 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] An old song is a good song?
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612152357.kBFNvHC02501@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

" From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
" 
"  
"  
"  
" Snip
" the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that all inline
" sixes are internally balanced by their very nature.  i haven't yet
" heard of one that isn't.
" Snip
"  
" Not that this is one of the things that I keep track of as a hobbiest,
" so I could not comment standpoint of knowledge, it is my understanding
" that internal or external balance is a decision made by the designer.
" Even the legendary Chevy small block which is internal balanced as I
" understand, the 400 cu in version of it is externally balanced leaving
" one to do some extra work when installing a 400 crank in a 350 to make
" the popular stroker 383 due to the external balance configuration of the
" 400 crank, as I understand it. 

yeah, but comparing a v to an inline is an apples-and-oranges thing.

" How some ever it was the increasingly popular use of  building and
" installing I-6 engines in some of early 1900 automobiles that lead to the
" invention and refinement of the design of the Harmonic Balancer due to
" the annoying habit of those engines to break crank shafts with out
" provocation. A problem that still prevails today. I am not sure how much
" balance plays a roll in that action, but my gut feeling is that the
" inherent balance design of an I-6 engine is pretty much an urban legend
" leaving the final decision to the method back in to the hands of the
" designer. In any case if I were to work on an I-6 engine other than my
" trusty 232 or 258 , the method of the engine being balanced would be
" about number 1 on my need to know and had better find out quick list of
" things to do. 

now we're talking torsional vibration, which i never thought of as
balanceable.


" From: "Mahoney, John" <jmahoney@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" 
" 
" >>
" the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that all inline
" sixes are internally balanced by their very nature.
" <<
" 
" Sometimes: depends on when.
" 
" http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/harmonics.htm

an excellent piece and illustrating just what i meant.  i was thinking
of the kind of balancing job hotrodders get on their v8s, trimming or
ballasting the crank counterweights to match piston/rod masses...
that's the stuff an inline doesn't need.  mirroring the crankshaft
about the midplane makes the cylinders balance each other.  okay, it
was a shockingly low rpm motor [-increase- revs to -50- rpm before
engaging clutch] by modern standards, but the '07 rolls royce silver
ghost six had no counterweights at all.

he's wrong about one thing though - radials have only one crank throw
per bank, with one 'master' rod that all the others hang off of, and
-big- counterweights on the throw.  yes, the pistons are all at
different points in their strokes - but they're at different angles
too.  when the crank throw moves up, they all must perforce -move-up-.

now if you had a six-row radial, you could phase the crank like an
inline six...

btw, 4-stroke radials have odd numbers of cylinders per bank - as you
go around the rim every second cylinder fires, and after two circuits
you're back to #1.  kind of like an internal combustion moebius
strip...
--
now i think of it, he's wrong on another point too.  the harmonic
balancer does -not- 'absorb' torsional vibrations; by resonating
properly in tune with them it can turn one large force peak into two
smaller ones on either side on the rpm scale.  'scale' is appropriate;
iirc the new peaks must be an octave apart, eg. 2:1 rpm ratio.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:56:29 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Re; An old song is a good song?
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000701c720ad$08ad61c0$9ddc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

 
 
 
Snip
it is my understanding
that internal or external balance is a decision made by the designer.
Even the legendary Chevy small block which is internal balanced as I
understand, the 400 cu in version of it is externally balanced leaving
one to do some extra work when installing a 400 crank in a 350 to make
the popular stroker 383 due to the external balance configuration of the
400 crank, as I understand it.
 
yeah, but comparing a v to an inline is an apples-and-oranges thing.
Snip
 
Yuh, agreed, but it seems to me that I compared a commonly available
engine with multiple 
parts interchangeability that can be found as both internal or
externally balanced depending 
on the displacement of the thing. 
 
That should make it an apples to apples comparison, or maybe a sour
grapes to sour grapes to
some. 
 
The point being, as far as I know there is nothing particularly magic
about the number of cylinders
and whether it is internal or external balanced.  A design feature which
is most probably a decision 
made by whomsoever designed the thing. 
 
In either case if one intends to do some major modifications on an
engine, determining what means 
Is required to balance it should rate right up there in some of the
first pieces of information to 
find out. Knowing before you install and tighten the last bolts how it
should be balanced and the
precautions required to avoid bolting together parts that will lend
themselves to creative
self-destruction could possibly avoid some expensive, embarrassing
moments.
 
John 
 
 
 


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:08:44 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Lego 73 Hornet!
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001001c720d8$a7b88120$9ddc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

 
Just poking around just for fun I ran across the following;
 
http://www.mocpages.com/moc.php/19846
 
This is different and unique
 
John


------------------------------

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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 37
****************************************