AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 36
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 36
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- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:07:01 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: gremlin sundowner sighting- So Cal. (Ken Siroonian)
2. Spirit needed: MUST BE 4cyl, stand. trans, w/ A/C (Kelly Tipton)
3. 401X Race Block (Nick ALFANO)
4. Re: 1966 Classic hump mount 4spd
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
5. Re: 327 water pump (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
6. Re: Need info on small bore 401 blcok
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
7. Floor mounted shifter... (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
8. Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate (John Elle)
9. Re: Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate (Sandwich Maker)
10. Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate (John Elle)
11. Re: 401X Race Block (Tom Jennings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:19:53 -0500
From: Ken Siroonian <KSiroonian@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] gremlin sundowner sighting- So Cal.
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<ADVANCES62YQYx3G5aY000000ee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Yes there was a pacer sundowner package as well, If I recall most of
these sundowners were california and/or florida based special editions.
I have an exterior sundowner decal for the pacer somewhere. It was
recatnagular and goldish. the diffferent zone's could do special models
if they ordered a certain quantity to make it worthwile with existing
parts or even specail colors that might not have normally been
avialable on that model, or a jeep color. I recall a special eagle
model came out in 1980, they were 2 drs, white with brown two tone
fender flare trim, and they had the beige.leather seat from the 79
concord models. the 80 seat was a different cut and sew pattern from
79, so this special edition utilized the left over 1979 upholstery and
seats. It soudl be great if you could scan that pacer literature so we
could see. I 'd love to recall what it was like. regards, ken.
On December 12, 2006 Larry R. Daum wrote:
> Yes, I have a piece of Literature for I believe a Pacer Sundowner
from as I
> recall 1976. I'd have to dig it out.
> But Ford was not the only car company to put out a regional decal
(ed)
> model type car. The most know of the Ford's is
> the Twister Mustang made for there Kansas City region , but AMC which
had
> it marketing heavily influenced by Ford marketing
> did this sort of thing also. The Badger State Javelin , done for the
> Milwaukee zone comes to mind, but there are others. The item of
literature
> I have is rare example of one which had enough promotion to have a
item of
> literature made. thanks , LRDaum
>
>
>
> Re: [AMC-List] gremlin sundowner sighting- So Cal.
>
> Date: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 04:17 PM
> From:
>
<mailto:superglider@xxxxxxxx?subject=Re:%20%5BAMC-List%5D%20gremlin%20su
ndowner%20sighting-%20So%20Cal.>Wayne
> E LaMothe <superglider@xxxxxxxx>
>
> I never heard of the Gremlin Sundowner model. I know the Eagles and
> Concords had a Sundancer package in 82. Any pics or literature on
the
> web for the Gremlin Sundowner?
>
> Wayne
>
> Wayne & Lisa (Skeezix), Bolton Landing, NY,
>
<http://www.superglider.thinkhost.com/>http://www.superglider.thinkhost.
com/
> AMO#8454, 83 Eagle Limited Wagon, 82 SX/4, 258 auto
> 69 Ambo coupe, 401, M12, 66 Ambo 990 Wagon,
327,PW,PB,PS,posi,AM/FM,AC
> 88 Jeep J10 360, auto- a Real truck
> 2001 Cherokee, 2000 Chrysler Cirrus (both hers)
>
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:19:50 -0700 "Keleigh Hardie"
> <<mailto:keleigh3000@xxxxxxxxxxx>keleigh3000@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > That car belongs to Charlie, a guide for one of the island
interior
> > tour bus
> > companies. He's owned it since it was new. (I met him on one of
the
> > planning
> > trips for my wedding in Avalon last summer)...
> >
> > Keleigh
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <<mailto:amc-list-request@xxxxxxx>amc-list-request@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <<mailto:amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:12 AM
> > Subject: AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 27
> >
> >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:06:07 -0500
> > > From: Ken Siroonian
<<mailto:KSiroonian@xxxxxxx>KSiroonian@xxxxxxx>
> > > Subject: [AMC-List] gremlin sundowner sighting- So Cal.
> > > To: <mailto:amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx>amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Message-ID:
> > >
>
<<mailto:ADVANCES62A1XvpFVjC00000032@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>ADVAN
CES62A1XvpFVjC00000032@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > >
> > > I was on a business trip to so cal/laguna beach last week, and
on
> > a
> > > free day took the boat trip to Catlalina island with a
colleague.
> > took
> > > a tour around the island and then did some walking, only to do
a
> > double
> > > take and see a 2 tone gold/tan 1977 Gremlin "sundowner" parked
on
> > a
> > > side street. It had the sundowner decal on the C pillar.
> > >
=============================================================
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:51:23 -0500
From: Kelly Tipton <jktipton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Spirit needed: MUST BE 4cyl, stand. trans, w/ A/C
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<ADVANCES62h9PgDb8YK0000007a@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
I am looking for a nice straight AMC Spirit for a little project.
The car MUST be a 4cyl "iron duke" car with a standard trans and A/C.
I need a NICE car. No rust bucket junkers. Interior must be intact.
Please e-mail me off-list as I do not check this list often anymore.
The closer to Texas, the better............
=============================================================
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:32:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Nick ALFANO <71amx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 401X Race Block
To: amc list <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20061215133256.38434.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Brien,
I would tend to go along with you that they didn't
really exist except I inspected it yesterday. It does
have the 401 cast into the side of the block, there
definitely is an "X" stamped above the casting and it
is a 3.750 bore. The water jackets are much larger
than a normal AMC V8. Looking at the size of them, I
doubt this engine could be bored more than .060 over
the 3.750 bore. The oil return holes in the intake
valley are plugged and it had 4 bolt mains at some
point in it's life. The part number shows it is a 401
but the bore is definitely not. There is also "401"
cast into the valley section of the block. This is
not some homemade job. It is definitely cast into the
block. The casting marks are much more pronounced on
this block than normal. The block has been tanked and
blasted down to a bare casting so there is no hiding
what is there.
Nick Alfano
Alfano Performance
Kenosha, WI. 53142
2662-308-1302
262-942-8271 after 6pm central and weekends
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:06:20 -0500
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 401X Race Block: "If she were MY
daughter..."
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <45823B5C.19227.99FD03F@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
For some reason,after reading Nicks'
post, I began hearing: 'The New Bitch' by ....:
marilyn manson ?...
........? use your FREE Shareaza .pgm to download the
music video
if you're wondering ......
This is the 'X' block - that 'doesn't exist' - no one
has
actually seen one - and lived to remembered where
they'd
even saw it, ever -
"Holy Grail" - "Block - 0h - Goal" - "No 'f'***in Way"
-
the whisperings 'X' block lore breatheren ...@ .050"
lift -
If it IS the real deal - > :
like Unicorns and Mermaids,
it's Fate is now terribly sealed:
remember what happened to 'Charley the Tuna' ?
It would make a Fantastic Magazine Article - as this
is
THE center of AMC engine 'Lore' - at very least, it
should
be Digitally Documented and Ultra-Sonic 'd Documented
before ........
well, ........ you know.....
Once word gets out, the 'Buzz' in the Forums - like
the
'BULLTEAR' site,[soo-wee what an Image that conjurs
Martha!]
it may eventually be sold to the highest bidder -
with the least credentials -
he'll send it out to be *BUILT* - ......for his
weekend rock crawler - "with 'The Biggest' pistons
ya' ever zeen"...erRRP@!! "yEAhBaBY...... tHAts'
tHe BeAST@!">,,,"we machined the PISS outa' er!...."
kinda' like Caesar in old'n days,
where he got to knock boots with the Brides before
..... well,
you know ..... .
Once it hits the machinist - it's just another 401 -
right
now ? it is THE ULTIMATE Turbo cylinder block - with
the 3.750 cylinder walls AND Thick main webbing, but
that will be overlooked by the less technical.
It'll serve as a weekend mudder 'Trophy' motor - until
it loses oil
pressure and
'windows' the block - ,
see duty as a 'Shop Lamp' , being wired up & placed
on
a stand by the Kelvinator beer keep - where actually,
it should
Begin a notable Retirement unfettered right now -
but life is cruel - especially when 'Bragging Rites'
are involved.
In a perfect world, it should be displayed in a glass
case in an
AMC Racing Museum! - but that will never happen.
Maybe Larry Daum would buy it & keep it pristine next
to that
Aluminum AMC Indy V8 motor - keeper of the Flame !
OK > one chance to hear from each of you on what YOU
would do with
the:
'Mythical 401x Race Only Cylinder Block' - should YOU
ever posess it
in its' current 'unmolested' condition !
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:52:30 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 1966 Classic hump mount 4spd
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A316D863@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I meant the main TSM, but have to admit that I forgot about the 66 290
supplement. Since the four speed came along with the 290, of course it
would be there!! (duh!! -- on my part!!)
On a brighter note, I was looking at a Hurst shifter site last night
that has decent pics and even better, PDF files of all the installation
sheets! The shifters are held to the trans mount plate by a 7/16" bolt
that runs through a hollow shaft on the shifter itself. The AMC floor
mount shifter has a metal rod that runs through the floor mount ("hump")
and the shifter. With this in mind, a Hurst shifter could be mounted in
the AMC floor mount. Might have to have a long 7/16" bolt or steel rod,
and weld/screw a washer or drilled metal plate to each side of the floor
mount, but it should work and look about stock. I passed this info on to
Dan last night, but thought someone here may find it interesting. The
floor mount for the Twin-Stick and 65-66 floor mount auto shifter is
about the same as the four speed floor mount. Wouldn't be hard to
convert either of them to use a Hurst four speed shifter. The only
possible problem I can see is that the length of the shifter arms might
not be long enough to go through the floor, but from the instruction
sheets I perused last might I don't think this will be a problem. The
length and shape of the shift rods could be a problem, may need more or
less adjustment and an hour or two of bending, but I'd definitely go
this route if I needed to replace a shifter and wanted to keep it stock
looking. Dan's shifter was mangled by a previous owner who took it apart
and had lots of pieces left over that were thrown out when
reassembling... He sent me a pic after he saw the break-down I scanned
for him.
The link: http://www.malloryracing.com/brands.aspx?BrandID=2
Look under "Instructions" -- there are sheets for most Hurst products. I
only found one, the "Indy Shifter for Muncie" (last page) that had the
T-10 specifically mentioned. The "Competition Plus" fits several T-10
applications (no AMC listed, of course!), but you need to know the make
and year a T-10 was used (most late 50s through mid 60s). There's also a
nice tranny ID chart, so you can ID the T-10 in the instruction sheets
from looks. The only difference in the shifters for T-10s for particular
make/model/year is the bosses on the tailshaft housing. If someone is
looking for a shifter, I think the AMC tailshaft bolt pattern is closest
to some of the Fords -- don't know which one. If you're familiar with
the boss pattern on the side of the AMC T-10 tailshaft housing you
should be able to pick it out from the tranny guide or instruction
sheets. Or just drill the mounting plate in whichever shifter is
closest.
----------------
Date: Thursday, December 14, 2006 02:07 PM
From: andrew hay <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: farna@xxxxxxx
"
The 67 and later four speed shifter bolts to the transmission. The 290
and four speed were mid year intros on the American. I would assume it
used the 67 style shifter, though the 66 style would fit and work. I
don't have a 66 American TSM, just big cars. Since it was a mid year
intro the four speed and shifter won't be in the TSM though.
i do have a '66 01 tsm -with- v8 supplement, and the shifter is indeed
the '67-up tailshaft-mounted variety.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:09:29 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 327 water pump
To: <f1boats@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A316D876@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You may have to take your pump to a parts store and have it sent in to
be rebuilt. I've had Advance do that before (after getting TWO 196 water
pumps that were the wrong ones for my car!), but you may have better
luck with NAPA. Back in SC there's a rebuilding business about an hour's
drive from my house, so it's easy enough to take things like that right
to the source! You might check the yellow pages and see if there is one
if you're near a large city, but it's not likely.
Do you have the ID tags for the engines, and/or know what they came out
of? I would suspect that the short shaft is for a 63-66 Classic or 62-64
Ambassador, while the long shaft is from a 58-61 or 65-66 Ambassador.
The ID tags are on the generator bracket, decode number at
www.amcrc.com/tech/engine.html.
Another possibility for the short one is the 1956 Ambo/Hornet Special
(they used the 250 and short wheelbase Statesman/Wasp bodies, long
wheelbase used the big OHV six) and 56-60 Rebel/61 Classic V-8 (250
except the 57 SE Rebel). The long shaft could also cross to the 57
Ambo/Hornet 327 (long wheelbase).
As far as I know there should only be the two pumps for the short and
long wheelbase cars. 250/287 should all be short shaft, 327 could be
either depending on year (only used in Ambo and 57 Rebel from factory,
with the exception of the 57 Hornet).
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:18:06 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Need info on small bore 401 blcok
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A316D881@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have an article describing the Indy stock block engines. It states a
special 401 casting with 3.75" bore for an engine size somewhere in the
200-250 cubic inch range. Will have to look up the article tonight for
more details -- it's easy to get to. It also mentions aftermarket main
caps. Has to be that block casting unless the block has been sleeved.
----------------
Date: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:52 PM
From: Nick ALFANO <71amx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Anyone have any information on a 401 block with an X
above the displacement casting and only a 3.750 bore.
There is also 401 cast into the intake valley. It has
very large water jackets and splayed main caps. It
might have been an endurance engine for one of the
racing sanctions with a long stroke and small bore.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:09:00 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Floor mounted shifter...
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A316D8F5@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I knew I'd seen a Hurst floor mount shifter! It's the Master Shift three
speed for 69-74 Ford and 71-87 GM vans. I'm not sure if the Indy
Qualifier mounts to the floor or not, but thought it did (no instruction
sheet for that one, and the pics in the catalog don't show enough to
tell).
The Master Shift van (only the years listed above!) mount brackets bolt
to the floor UNDER the van on each side of the shifter with a long 7/16"
bolt going through the shifter and mount plates. Basically the same
three speed shifter as other Hurst models. This goes right along with my
idea of modifying the AMC "hump" floor mount and installing a Hurst four
speed shifter in this same manner. The Master Shift is mounted under the
floor because of the distance between the floor and trans in the van --
much more than in a car. So if you don't want to desecrate the stock
floor mount, just make two steel brackets to go on each side of the
shifter and hold it to the floor.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:08:13 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000c01c72063$3c7721c0$addc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Marty
Snip
I had the transmission of my daughters 83 Spirit (258,
auto) rebuilt in Aug 05. In Jul 06 it had to be
rebuilt again (under warranty). It failed again a
week ago with less than 7K since the initial rebuild.
Snip
Hmmm! Sounds like the same outfit that did the
transmission on my Town and Country
Snip
THe tranny guy is trying to blame it on a bad flexpate
Snip
The 232 and 258 AMC I-6 are internally balanced, flex
plates can be swapped back and forth like spark plugs.
I do not know how many AMC i-6's are internally balanced
but I am under the impression they all are.
The only verified bad flex plate I ever had on an automobile
I purchased the car with it and sold it many years later
with the flex plate still in it. It had radial cracks running
out from the center hub. Of course it was a Cheby.
John.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:11:41 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612151811.kBFIBfQ29216@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
"
"
"
" The 232 and 258 AMC I-6 are internally balanced, flex
" plates can be swapped back and forth like spark plugs.
" I do not know how many AMC i-6's are internally balanced
" but I am under the impression they all are.
the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that all inline
sixes are internally balanced by their very nature. i haven't yet
heard of one that isn't.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:02:47 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Re; 258 engine balance and flexplate
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001101c7207b$9f7c7af0$addc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Snip
the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that all inline
sixes are internally balanced by their very nature. i haven't yet
heard of one that isn't.
Snip
Not that this is one of the things that I keep track of as a hobbiest,
so I could not comment
standpoint of knowledge, it is my understanding that internal or
external balance is a
decision made by the designer. Even the legendary Chevy small block
which is internal
balanced as I understand, the 400 cu in version of it is externally
balanced leaving one to
do some extra work when installing a 400 crank in a 350 to make the
popular stroker
383 due to the external balance configuration of the 400 crank, as I
understand it.
How some ever it was the increasingly popular use of building and
installing I-6 engines
in some of early 1900 automobiles that lead to the invention and
refinement of the design
of the Harmonic Balancer due to the annoying habit of those engines to
break crank shafts
with out provocation. A problem that still prevails today. I am not sure
how much balance
plays a roll in that action, but my gut feeling is that the inherent
balance design of an I-6
engine is pretty much an urban legend leaving the final decision to the
method back in
to the hands of the designer. In any case if I were to work on an I-6
engine other than my
trusty 232 or 258 , the method of the engine being balanced would be
about number 1 on
my need to know and had better find out quick list of things to do.
If memory serves me correctly, and as a certified old guy now it is
allowed that my memory
can be faulty but still infallible, my Grandfather bought a brand new
1956 or 7 Rambler, 3 tone purple
and mauve paint with matching interior off of a show room flow and had
the crank shaft break
in two on it with in a few thousand miles. Boy those were the days,
three tone paint and a
matching vinyl interior. A far cry from spending mega-bucks for a
monotone Buick with a gray
mouse fur interior that you can do today.
Lets hear it for another better idea! A 4 door Mustang PPPPFFFFFTTTTTT!
Zoom Zoom
John
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:06:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401X Race Block
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612151105450.8539@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Nick ALFANO wrote:
> I would tend to go along with you that they didn't
> really exist except I inspected it yesterday. It does
> have the 401 cast into the side of the block, there
> definitely is an "X" stamped above the casting and it
> is a 3.750 bore. The water jackets are much larger
> than a normal AMC V8. Looking at the size of them, I
> doubt this engine could be bored more than .060 over
> the 3.750 bore. The oil return holes in the intake
> valley are plugged and it had 4 bolt mains at some
> point in it's life. The part number shows it is a 401
> but the bore is definitely not. There is also "401"
> cast into the valley section of the block. This is
> not some homemade job. It is definitely cast into the
> block. The casting marks are much more pronounced on
> this block than normal. The block has been tanked and
> blasted down to a bare casting so there is no hiding
> what is there.
Wow, that's pretty spectacular. Where did you get it? Where
did it come from?
Where there heads that came with it?
------------------------------
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