AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 25

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
      (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
   2. Re: AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
      (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
   3. Re: AMC six ignition timing -- got it! (Mark Price)
   4. Re: FWD: wanted: man flywheel for 1967 J3000 232 six
      (Sandwich Maker)
   5. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Sandwich Maker)
   6. FW: Re; Flex plate question (John Elle)
   7. Re: Blue light special HELP (Mark Price)
   8. Re: Failed HC emission test (Jim Blair)
   9. Re: Flexplate Question (Jim Blair)
  10. Re: Flexplate Question (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
  11. Re: FWD: wanted: man flywheel for 1967 J3000 232 six
      (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
  12. Re: Blue light special HELP (Tom Jennings)
  13. Re: Blue light special HELP (ROSS BLAIR)
  14. MOPAR Mania Cruise (KENT ANDERSON)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:10:24 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313CB7F@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Tom Jennings wrote:
Now I have to really figure out coolant temps. I have
a Mr. Gasket 195 degree thermostat in there. I thought "195
degree" means it begins to open at 195. Or is it fully open
at 195? I'm confused -- in cool air, flat and level, 60 mph,
sealevel, the coolant temp settles to a steady 172F. If I let
it idle, with the fan thermostat set to 200F, it cycles 195,
205, 195, 205, ... with the fan.

I have a Mr. Gasket 180 degree, I may put that in, but I don't
want the steady-state temp to drop to 160 or whatever!
------------------

I don't think the steady state temp will drop if you use a 180
thermostat, but it could. Try turning the fan on a little sooner. That's
what I do -- fan comes on about the same time the thermostat starts to
open, or just before. Non-adjustable fan switches aren't always accurate
-- a lot depends on where the pickup is mounted too, adjustable or not.
Mine's right behind and against the radiator on the left side near the
outlet. In the summer I usually adjust to come on a little sooner, later
in cold weather (like here in Dover, never needed to in MS!). 

You might try a one or two heat range cooler plug too. That has helped a
lot of the stroker guys. 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:34:20 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313CBAE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

> fine. NO ping at all, I had it in to keep engine temps down as
> my shortblock is a warranty pull for piston noise when hot,
> so I thought I'd keep it cooler and see what happened. I've
> never heard said piston noise and enjoy my "free" 4.0L greatly!

Wow, that's weird. Some piston scuffing a wall when hot?

-----------------

A machine shop tech who rebuilt a lot of warranty blocks for the local
Chrysler dealer when I was in Warner Robins, GA, told me that the
factory piston to wall clearance on the 4.0L was something like 0.020".
They discovered that when the clearance was increased to 0.040" there
would be a piston "tick" due to the skirt rocking a little, mostly at
low speeds (more at idle than anything). It would generally go away at
highway speeds, but could have been other noise masking it. This
occurred on a lot of low mileage 4.0Ls made in the early to mid 90s --
shortly after Chrysler took over. The permanent fix was coated skirts
and some additional webbing for the 96 and later engines. Could be that
as the engine warms the clearance increases in Mark's engine, but
doesn't increase enough to cause a discernable noise under 200 degrees
or so. A lot of people "in the know" bought relatively low mile
Cherokees in the mid 90s from owners who were still worried after being
told the engine noise was normal. Those who were leery dumped 40-50K
mile Cherokees at good prices! 



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 6:01:50 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <26614590.1165845710256.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I never really tried to figure out exactly what was up with the noises cause. The guy that gave me the shortblock said the noises usually occured when the Jeeps were HOT, up around the range the cooling fans cycled on and off. I figured with the larger grille area in the American, I'd try a 180* t-stat and see what the reult was as I could see the bores and they were spotless, with no scuffs of scratches evident. I knew th eowrst I would do is have a piston or other engine rattle.
  The engine in the American is not as noisy as the one in my wifes 97 and it is supposed to be the "new" engine!

--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV


---- "Swygert wrote: 
> > fine. NO ping at all, I had it in to keep engine temps down as
> > my shortblock is a warranty pull for piston noise when hot,
> > so I thought I'd keep it cooler and see what happened. I've
> > never heard said piston noise and enjoy my "free" 4.0L greatly!
> 
> Wow, that's weird. Some piston scuffing a wall when hot?
> 
> -----------------
> 
> A machine shop tech who rebuilt a lot of warranty blocks for the local
> Chrysler dealer when I was in Warner Robins, GA, told me that the
> factory piston to wall clearance on the 4.0L was something like 0.020".
> They discovered that when the clearance was increased to 0.040" there
> would be a piston "tick" due to the skirt rocking a little, mostly at
> low speeds (more at idle than anything). It would generally go away at
> highway speeds, but could have been other noise masking it. This
> occurred on a lot of low mileage 4.0Ls made in the early to mid 90s --
> shortly after Chrysler took over. The permanent fix was coated skirts
> and some additional webbing for the 96 and later engines. Could be that
> as the engine warms the clearance increases in Mark's engine, but
> doesn't increase enough to cause a discernable noise under 200 degrees
> or so. A lot of people "in the know" bought relatively low mile
> Cherokees in the mid 90s from owners who were still worried after being
> told the engine noise was normal. Those who were leery dumped 40-50K
> mile Cherokees at good prices! 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> 
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:52:40 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] FWD: wanted: man flywheel for 1967 J3000 232
	six
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx, tina60f44@xxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612111452.kBBEqeR10742@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

" From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
" 
" wanted: man flywheel for 1967 J3000 232 six
"    Posted by: "my67j3000" tina60f44@xxxxxxxxxxx my67j3000
"    Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 7:10 am ((PST))
" 
" I need a manual flywheel for a 1967 J3000 232 six cylinder. It is
" smaller than the newer 232s & 258s, it took a 10 inch clutch & I am
" having a hard time finding one. So all I can say is HELP!!!!!

as the engine came from amc, you'll find it in their cars as well as
jeeps.  they changed the flywheel size in '72; what you need is the
'64-'71 199/232/258 one.

iirc it has two patterns, for 9 1/8" and 10.5" clutches.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:01:36 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612111501.kBBF1aD10903@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

" From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
" 
" Sorry that was just a shock, I'm assuming you wouldn't have posted that
" if it weren't LOL. 
" 
" I used a ready made one for the 4.3 that was for a Chevy 350, figured I
" was out of luck for one for amc v-8s and it didn't occur to me that the
" 4.0 would be the same. That's going to save me a bit of work. Do you
" know if they used a cam position sensor in the end of that 4.0
" distributorless system?

my bad!  i didn't catch [or recall] that you were working on a -v8-...
i don't think it'll work for you.  it does have a cps though.

i wonder if you could use a ford cps in a duraspark body?  that might
depend on how much ford changed their dist through the '80s.

" -----Original Message-----
" From: Widiker, John D
" 
"  Same depth and gear as the v-8?????
" 
" -----Original Message-----
" From: Sandwich Maker
" 
" " From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx> " 
" " (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump),
" 
" you could get one out of a '99-up 4.0 to do that.  they have
" distributorless ign.
" ________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:07:52 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] FW: Re; Flex plate question
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000201c71d36$254029f0$74dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

 
 
Tod. 
 
As far as I know the torque converter should bolt on to the 304's flex
plate. The flex plate is balanced to the engine while the torque
converter is  neutral balanced. 
It had better work anyway as I am bolting a 360 that was bolted to a 727
into my Hornet which has the 998 and I am expecting the 360 flex plate
to bolt up to the 998 torque converter.
 
Snip
We're swapping a 304 into my son's Matador.  It currently has a 360 with
a 727
transmission.  The 304 came out of a Javelin with a 998.  Will the
flexplate
that's already on the 304 work correctly with the 727?
Snip
 
John
 
 


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 7:21:38 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <29765346.1165850498785.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Well, That's OK.
The reason I asked is I know just enough about leds and their light pattern to be dangerous!
The gauge cluster in the American is being replaced with a Billet aluminum panel and a full set of Autometer Sport Comp gauges. 3 1/4 electronic speedo and tach, 2 1/8" Water/oil/fuel/volt.
  The sport comp gauges only have a provision for one top mounted 194 lamp in a socket. My fear is I'll end up with gauges too dim to see. Unless I can get leds with the right pattern. 
  I tried the blue colored 195 lamps in the stock dash and I can barely make out the gauges! The blue tint is just too dark. I guess I'll try some of the sites mentioned and take some measurements to see if the multi led 194 replacements will fit thru the holes in the gauges.
   If the gauges would allow I could drill holes to add leds around the perimeter. I hate to start drilling on new gauges! I don't want to take the dash in and out a dozen time either. 
   I wonder if the 91 Jeep ecu cares about the resistance on any of the assorted lamps it triggers?
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV


---- Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> wrote: 
> (oops, this ended up kinda long :-)
> 



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:33:40 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Failed HC emission test
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F122B0D7D0B96316FB75D54ACD00@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Did you do an oil change just prior to the test? That makes a huge 
difference by itself. Aside from that, a new air filter and Autolite plugs 
usually work. What condition is the cat? Do you fill the gas tank as far as 
you can? (rookie mistake. It floods the charcoal cannister and overloads the 
HCs. I had to unplug my cannister temporarily because my son did that on my 
'83 Eagle wagon)
   Still running stock coil? The TFI upgrade helps a lot but even just a 
'70s Mopar ignition coil (which requires removal of the stupid horseshoe 
connector that can cause a miss) cuts missing down a lot. Aside from that, 
checking float level and adjusting the metering rods will help a lot (I love 
being able to adjust the rods externally) I usually de-carburize the engine 
before I do the oil change too.
  If you have blowby, temporarily re-route it to a cannister. Many higher 
mileage 4.0L engines need to do this as well to squeak by the test.


From: Marty Bricker <mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Failed HC emission test
To: AMC List <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <128179.61943.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The emission control computer on my 83 SX/4 has failed
so I performed a 'Nutter' bypass so it would start.  I
recently failed the HC emisson test.  Any suggestions
on how to lower my HC emissions.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Visit MSN Holiday Challenge for your chance to win up to $50,000 in Holiday 
cash from MSN today!  
http://www.msnholidaychallenge.com/index.aspx?ocid=tagline&locale=en-us



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:41:28 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Flexplate Question
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F7BE3C97CC0541F0581FB4ACD00@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

A: It will bolt on but the balance weight is slightly bigger on the 360 
flexplate and can cause vibrations (I've seen some with major vibes and some 
with none. I had a 304 powered Cherokee that shuddered like crazy (almost 
typed carazy!) with the TH400 behind it till the right flexplate was put in.
   Doh! Just reread the post (with my glasses on) and you need to see if the 
flexplate's bolt pattern lines up to the converter holes or you have the 
dual pattern flexplate. (I thought you were putting the 360 plate on the 
304. I took a dremel to the 360 one for my '73 J4000 at first when I put the 
'77 AMX 304 in and it didn't vibe, but several teeth were missing and I had 
to replace it with the correct one anyways)


From: Todd Tomason <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Flexplate Question
To: AMC List <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200612102026.45115.jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

We're swapping a 304 into my son's Matador.  It currently has a
360 with a 727
transmission.  The 304 came out of a Javelin with a 998.  Will
the flexplate
that's already on the 304 work correctly with the 727?

Todd

_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:09:48 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Flexplate Question
To: <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313CD16@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

The 304 flexplate should bolt to the 727 converter (assuming it's a 72
or later 304). If you have a good 998 that will be the better choice,
unless you plan on converting back to 360 power. The 727 takes a lot
more power to turn and might feel a little sluggish behind a 304. 



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:15:20 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] FWD: wanted: man flywheel for 1967 J3000 232
	six
To: <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313CD20@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

" From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
"
" wanted: man flywheel for 1967 J3000 232 six
"    Posted by: "my67j3000" tina60f44@xxxxxxxxxxx my67j3000
"    Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 7:10 am ((PST))
"
" I need a manual flywheel for a 1967 J3000 232 six cylinder. It is
" smaller than the newer 232s & 258s, it took a 10 inch clutch & I am
" having a hard time finding one. So all I can say is HELP!!!!!

as the engine came from amc, you'll find it in their cars as well as
jeeps.  they changed the flywheel size in '72; what you need is the
'64-'71 199/232/258 one.

iirc it has two patterns, for 9 1/8" and 10.5" clutches.
--------------------

I believe a 196 flywheel fits also. AFAIK there was no change in the
bolt pattern, and my 196 flywheel was drilled for two different clutch
sizes also -- one larger than the one it used. Not sure about sizes
though. 



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:15:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP
To: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612110912150.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Mark Price wrote:

>   I tried the blue colored 195 lamps in the stock dash and
> I can barely make out the gauges! The blue tint is just too
> dark. 

The problem is incandescent lamps output a lot of energy in
the infrared, red and yellow colors (frequencies). They make
almost nothing in blue, violet and ultraviolet, so blue paint
on a hot bulb makes heat and dark.

(My Rambler has some korean war era aircraft cockpit lamps;
they have UV glass filters you can rotate into place; with
#2357's both filaments on you can roast a chicken on them,
but they make nearly zero blue light!)

The blue LEDs actually generate blue light, so they'll be better
than the lamps anyways.


------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:19:28 +0500
From: "ROSS BLAIR" <bigbad69@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061211171929.4CB1C1CE304@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

<snip>
I wonder if the 91 Jeep ecu cares about the resistance on any of the assorted lamps it triggers?
<snip>

If these are the "idiot" warning lamps that are either on or off (no dimming) then you should be OK as long as the current required by the LED's is less than the current required by the bulbs. The ECU is either providing supply current or providing a ground return path for the lamp circuit. If you over-current the output transistors, you can fry them. Less current is not a problem. 

If there is a dimming function, the above still holds true, but the dimming won't work the same as with a bulb.



Ross Blair
69 BBO Javelin 390
Ottawa, Ont.

-- 

Search for products and services at: 
http://search.mail.com




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:40:23 -0500
From: "KENT ANDERSON" <65marlin327@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] MOPAR Mania Cruise
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000101c71d4a$05264cd0$6400a8c0@SONY>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Just FYI, the MOPAR Mania cruise at Woodmere Park in Venice, Florida yesterday had one hell of an AMC turnout!  Twelve AMC vehicles, including Javelins, a Pacer, three varieties of AMX, a '61 Classic (some 30,000 actual miles), a '65 Marlin, one AMC Jeep, and a Hornet SC 360.

It was a GREAT show, excellent venue, perfect weather, and the AMC enthusiasm was higher than I remember at ANY other show I've been to in Florida.  It's an annual cruise, usually the first or second Sunday in December.  If you've missed it in the three years it's been going, please try to catch it next year.  It gets bigger, and better every year.  A wonderful show, and every one of the AMC cars there was a hit!

------------------------------

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AMC-List mailing list
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 25
****************************************