Re: [AMC-List] Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans info!!)

[farna@xxxxxxx]

67 Americans with 232 used a M-37, not an M-40. The M-40 was used behind the 290. It was common to use a stronger trans in HD and fleet applications, so it's very possible that the standard 290 (M-40) trans was used as the D/fleet 232 trans. The plugs are clearly seen in the 67 American TSM. The same procedures are used for the M-36, M-37, and M-40 in the TSM, but the pic I'm referring to (page 11-18, if you have a 67 American TSM handy) is identified as being from the 290 version. The M-42 didn't come out until 1970. The plugs are clearly shown on page 9-4-2 of the 70 TSM. 

So either the trans was changed at some time, you thought it was a 42 but it was actually a 3x series, or you just don't remember seeing the plugs. I don't recall everything accurately all the time -- I'm sure you can recall a post or two where I've attempted to answer something from memory and have been "called out" on it! But I'm armed with books at the moment!! ;> 

--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars" 
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
(free download available!)

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> I've asked about the S-42 before and never recieved any of this info.
> The trans is long gone now. So I can't double check but I'm 100% sure it did not 
> have any provisions for hydraulic lines! I checked as my 67 American manual 
> shows the fleet Americans having hydraulic cooling lines from the factory! I saw 
> that and looked hard into adding cooling lines. Till I realized I was not ever 
> going to build the original 232. When I pulled it out I looked again! If the 
> plugs were there I'd have seen them.
> --
> Mark Price
> markprice242ATadelphia.net
> Morgantown, WV
> 
> 
> ---- farna@xxxxxxx wrote: 
> > All the Borg Warner auto transmissions used by AMC have model numbers like 
> "AS2-40" (M-40) and "AS8-11" (M-11). This is a Borg-Warner numbering system. I 
> beleive the first letter to be who the trans was made for (A = AMC), the first 
> number to be the basic B-W trans model (the 2 and 8 in the examples), and the 
> last number the revision or particular model of the basic version (40 and 11). 
> So far my research stands up. We AMCers usually shorthand it to the end model 
> number, thus an "AS8-11" becomes an M-11.
> > 
> > The M-4x series should have two plugs in the case on the right side. Those 
> plugs can be removed and fittings added to use an external cooler. I'm not sure 
> if one was available from the factory from AMC or not, might have been an 
> aftermarket item some dealers provided. No liquid coolers or cooler lines are 
> mentioned in the TSMs, not even for the M-1x series. You'd think a cooler would 
> be a fleet/HD option, or a trialer towing option, but no mention in the TSM at 
> all. A cooler isn't mentioned in a 66 owners or accessories booklet either. But 
> they can be installed on a 4x models, just not the 3x. 
> > 
> > --
> > Frank Swygert
> > Publisher, "American Motors Cars" 
> > Magazine (AMC)
> > For all AMC enthusiasts
> > http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
> > (free download available!)
> > 
> >  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > The trans I sold and shipped to California a year or two ago was a S-42 
> model 
> > > which I always assumed meant it was a S for service replacement.
> > > I wonder if the guy ever got it installed? I wonder how different it was? I 
> > > shipped it complete with converter and yoke. Hopefully the guy didn't have 
> so 
> > > many problems.
> > > I know it did not have a tranny line fitting for liquid cooling! It also had 
> the 
> > > dipstick tube going into the case instead of the transpan.
> > > I know it was a good working trans when I swapped it out to put in the 4.0L.
> > > --
> > > Mark Price
> > > markprice242ATadelphia.net
> > > Morgantown, WV
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ---- farna@xxxxxxx wrote: 
> > > > Jerijan jerijan at adelphia.net
> > > > Tue Nov 28 20:09:52 UTC 2006
> > > > 
> > > > I have just spent the forth day doing an 'easy change' placing a 232 
> > > Transmission from 1970 into a 1965 American with a 196.
> > > > Easy Change...almost...
> > > > I was told it was a drop and do... Except...
> > > > I had to change the input shaft and the shaft the oil pump mounts to so 
> the 
> > > Torque converter would fit...
> > > > This is because the torque converter from the 196 would not fit the 
> splines on 
> > > the 232's tranny...Changed the bell housings and tried the 232 torque 
> converter 
> > > and...the bell housing would not allow the transmission to 'go in'..it hit 
> the 
> > > cowl with the engine lowered in the rear.
> > > > So...changed the two shafts in the front of the trans and...put the 196 
> torque 
> > > converter on it and the original bell housing (from the 196) and...
> > > > AL-Ley-Leu-YA!!  IT FIT INTO THE CAR...and every thing lined up nicely..
> > > > Everything, that is, except...
> > > > The YOKE.
> > > > The Yoke from the 196 does not go into the 232's tailshaft.
> > > > Seems the 232's yoke did fit the 196's tranny (strange, isn 't it??  Same 
> with 
> > > the torque convertor..the 232's fit the 196 but not vice versa)...
> > > > 
> > > > -----------------------------
> > > > 
> > > > You should have a model 43 transmission (1970 232), which is why you have 
> so 
> > > many problems! I haven't actually seen every automatic transmission AMC has 
> > > used, at least not out of the car and side by side for comaprisons. Your 
> > > interchange adventure uncovered a lot of information! The front pumps are 
> > > slightly different, and I bet that M-43 shaft is made of a stronger material 
> > > than the 196 shaft. That would be the only logical reason for not allowing 
> the 
> > > larger converter of the 232 to fit the 196 trans, but allowign the smaller 
> > > converter to fit the 232 trans. The 67 American TSM does mention that the 3x 
> and 
> > > 4x are "similar in construction, design and operation" (probably mentioned 
> in 
> > > the 65 and 66 American TSMs also -- I only have big car TSM those years -- 
> no 
> > > mention of model numbers but the 65 appears to be M3x only). So it seems 
> like 
> > > the 3x and 4x are sort of like the TF 904 and 998 -- the 998 is a heavy duty 
> 904 
> > > for all preactical purposes, and many parts interchange betwee!
> > > >  n the t
> > > > wo, with most 998 parts being made the same size as the 904 but from 
> stronger 
> > > material (in most cases). Same with the yoke -- 232 needs a bigger u-joint, 
> > > won't hurt to put the bigger one behind a 196 though. 
> > > > 
> > > > You're the second person this year to mention air cooling for 4x tranny 
> that 
> > > is air cooled. I thought they were all fluid cooled, but that's obviously 
> > > incorrect. They have the ABILITY to be fluid cooled, and some apparently 
> were 
> > > from the factory (depends on options, I guess, as one of the cars mentioned 
> this 
> > > year with an air cooled trans and no fluid cooler was a 68 or 69 Ambassador 
> with 
> > > 232), other were added at the dealer or by owners at some point in time. 
> After 
> > > careful examination of the TSMs, I can determine that the 4x series has the 
> > > capability for liquid cooling, but the 3x series does not. All they need for 
> air 
> > > cooling is the correct torque converter with fan attached and the bell with 
> air 
> > > inlets/outlets. The key is the "converter out" tube in the 4x series. This 
> goes 
> > > over to a passage on the right front corner (with trans in car -- right side 
> is 
> > > driver's side of US models) of the trans under the oil pan. There is a plug 
> in 
> > > the side of the trans there, or the outlet !
> > > >  line to
> > > >  a cooler. There is another plug near the right rear that just empties 
> back 
> > > into the pan. It might be possible to intall this tube on a M3x and drill 
> the 
> > > passage. I can't tell if this tube is not present in air cooled 4x models or 
> if 
> > > there is another opening for converter return oil to go through if an 
> external 
> > > cooler is not used. I tend to believe the latter, either a pressure relief 
> valve 
> > > or an external cooler is partial flow, which would make more sense from a 
> design 
> > > standpoint. The converter is last in the line of fluid flow, fluid goes 
> through 
> > > the control valve body first, so a pressure drop at the "converter out" 
> point 
> > > won't affect trans operation. 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks for supplying the information on what it took to convert a M3x car 
> to 
> > > an M4x trans. It got me into the books a bit more! I'd have never guessed 
> that 
> > > the bell was noticeably bigger on the 4x if you hadn't completed this swap. 
> You 
> > > didn't mention what the 4x came from though, V-8 or I-6 car? That would 
> likely 
> > > make a difference -- the I-6 bell might be the same size for both, with the 
> V-8 
> > > using a larger bell (and possibly converter). One final mystery!!
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > Frank Swygert
> > > > Publisher, "American Motors Cars" 
> > > > Magazine (AMC)
> > > > For all AMC enthusiasts
> > > > http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
> > > > (free download available!)
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > AMC-List mailing list
> > > > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> > > > 
> > > > or go to http://www.amc-list.com
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 


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