AMC-List Digest, Vol 7, Issue 35
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 7, Issue 35
- From: amc-list-request@xxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:53:50 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs. Restored
(markskur1@xxxxxxx)
2. Re: AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs. Restored (Mark Price)
3. Re: AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs. Restored (Jim Shadwick)
4. Re: Air Cooled Transmissions (Mark Price)
5. Re: AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs. Restored (ROSS BLAIR)
6. Strut rod bushing (russ hathaway)
7. Re: AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs. Restored (Mark Price)
8. Re: 65 Rambler American 2dr sedan For Sale (mine) Los Angeles
(Mark Price)
9. Re: Strut rod bushing (Savage, Pete)
10. Diary of a crippled white man update (Mark Price)
11. Re: Strut Rod Bushings again- '70 -'8X (Tom Jennings)
12. AMC engine blocks (russ hathaway)
13. stupid questions (russ hathaway)
14. Re: stupid questions (Wayne E LaMothe)
15. Re: Strut bushings (Tom Jennings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:10:50 -0400
From: markskur1@xxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs. Restored
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <8C890E73E6CDB4C-278-3155@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Fellow AMCer's,
I have decision to make with my 74 AMX(32,000 original miles):
This car is an original, non-restored, survivor: Original paint(great condition), glass, interior, chrome, stainless, exhaust system. The motor and tranny have never been separated and removed.
My decision: should I remove the engine to detail and paint, or leave in the engine bay and clean and detail only(leaving the original "patina")?
I cannot compete with frame-off, rotissoire restored stock vehicles at car shows.
If they had a vintage/survivor class I would do well.
I welcome your feedback/opinions!
Thanks,
mark
________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 8:28:01 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs.
Restored
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: markskur1@xxxxxxx
Message-ID: <16882319.1155914881929.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
With that mileage I would leave it in unrestored condition.
But, thats just me. Even with only 32,000 on it if you tear into it to detail you may be heading down a long road as it tends to lead to the ,"Oh while I'm in here" Syndrome. :]
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- markskur1@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Fellow AMCer's,
> I have decision to make with my 74 AMX(32,000 original miles):
> This car is an original, non-restored, survivor: Original paint(great condition), glass, interior, chrome, stainless, exhaust system. The motor and tranny have never been separated and removed.
> My decision: should I remove the engine to detail and paint, or leave in the engine bay and clean and detail only(leaving the original "patina")?
> I cannot compete with frame-off, rotissoire restored stock vehicles at car shows.
> If they had a vintage/survivor class I would do well.
>
> I welcome your feedback/opinions!
>
> Thanks,
> mark
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:47:05 -0600
From: Jim Shadwick <idahoamx@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs.
Restored
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <44E5E0F9.505@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I agree with Mark......it is only original once.....it is your car but
if it were mine I would leave it as is and just do a very
good cleaning inside and out....I have a 73 Matador with low miles that
I plan to get repainted only because the driver
side front fender was damaged and repainted and does not match the rest
of the car........Jim
--
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 8:58:26 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Air Cooled Transmissions
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: John Elle <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <21928885.1155916706931.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I can check this some day as I have two trans cores laying in my shed.
I think there are no holes drilled to do this however. I think the six cylinder fleet/taxi cars and later postal jeeps are the only source for a ready made liquid cooled 35 series trans. I have to get into the shed at soem point, but it will be a while yet.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- John Elle <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> For what it's worth.
> It seems to me this subject came up here locally a couple of years ago
> and the general consensus was that air cooled transmissions actually had
> pipe plug capped fittings that you could unscrew the pipe plugs from and
> screw in lines that could be run to an external cooler if you wanted to
> go through that work.
> I have been wracking my brains trying to be more specific but senior
> moments seem to clog up the thought process.
> Is there any truth to this?
> John.
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:17:43 +0500
From: "ROSS BLAIR" <bigbad69@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs.
Restored
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060818171743.7FD131024D@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Mark,
If that trophy is important to you, then go the rotissary route. However, you should be aware that it's a long and expensive road you set out on. (Ask me how I know!) It won't cost much less to restore a 32,000 mile original than it does a basket case because everthing has to be replaced anyway. Those decent looking parts that look good now will look like crap when installed in a perfect body. You might even find you have to replace seat covers and door panels to get the final finish right, not to mention rechroming everything. That's the price of that trophy.
As Mark and Jim said, if it were my car, I would clean it and detail it, and forget the resto idea. Maybe the show judges don't see the value of an unrestored original in nice shape, but I do.
Ross Blair
69 BBO Javelin 390
Ottawa, Ont.
--
___________________________________________________
Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Strut rod bushing
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060818175251.1317.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
When I rebuilt my 65 Americans front end I got poly
bushings made for a CJ-5, Bronco and also a strut rod
front end, I can't remember the make right now. These
were all from a 4x4 parts house (the same guys who
made up my AMX sub-frame connectors). I simply took
the old Rambler suspension parts down with several
measuring implements and started looking at parts.
I had to buy poly bushings from maybe four different
apps and most bolted right on, a few had to be
adjusted but I used nothing more complicated than a
drill press.
When I gathered poly bushings for my Hornet earlier
this year the guy remembered me from the rebuild two
years ago, and the bushings have held up fine.....Russ
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:56:33 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMCer's Opinions: Survivor/Vintage vs.
Restored
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: ROSS BLAIR <bigbad69@xxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <1733036.1155923793728.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
It's only Original once!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- ROSS BLAIR <bigbad69@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> If that trophy is important to you, then go the rotissary route. However, you should be aware that it's a long and expensive road you set out on. (Ask me how I know!) It won't cost much less to restore a 32,000 mile original than it does a basket case because everthing has to be replaced anyway. Those decent looking parts that look good now will look like crap when installed in a perfect body. You might even find you have to replace seat covers and door panels to get the final finish right, not to mention rechroming everything. That's the price of that trophy.
>
> As Mark and Jim said, if it were my car, I would clean it and detail it, and forget the resto idea. Maybe the show judges don't see the value of an unrestored original in nice shape, but I do.
>
> Ross Blair
> 69 BBO Javelin 390
> Ottawa, Ont.
>
> --
> ___________________________________________________
> Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:58:53 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 65 Rambler American 2dr sedan For Sale (mine)
Los Angeles
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Mike Kindle <mike90066@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <5870543.1155923933814.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
If I only had another space in the garage and a wife who would not kill me, Oh yeah, If I wasn't all dissabled right now. RATS!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Mike Kindle <mike90066@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I want it to go to a good home so I'm posting to the list first before it
> goes on ebay or something.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:02:42 -0400
From: "Savage, Pete" <PSavage@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut rod bushing
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<BD261180E6D35F4D9D32F3E44FD3D90103460791@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Folks,
Ford mustangs, fairlanes, cougars, falcons, granada's all used adjustable strut rods.
I have installed both AMC and ford replacements and I do not see any difference.
Has anyone tried the ford strut rod bushing kit?
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx]On Behalf Of russ hathaway
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:53 PM
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] Strut rod bushing
When I rebuilt my 65 Americans front end I got poly
bushings made for a CJ-5, Bronco and also a strut rod
front end, I can't remember the make right now. These
were all from a 4x4 parts house (the same guys who
made up my AMX sub-frame connectors). I simply took
the old Rambler suspension parts down with several
measuring implements and started looking at parts.
I had to buy poly bushings from maybe four different
apps and most bolted right on, a few had to be
adjusted but I used nothing more complicated than a
drill press.
When I gathered poly bushings for my Hornet earlier
this year the guy remembered me from the rebuild two
years ago, and the bushings have held up fine.....Russ
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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_______________________________________________
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http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:10:17 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Diary of a crippled white man update
To: strokers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <33117575.1155924617380.JavaMail.root@web26>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Finally after 5 weeks of sitting and waiting, I will be getting this collar bone put back where it belongs.
Surgery for alignment and pins is scheduled for Tuesday. It's supposed to be a same day surgery, but may require an overnight stay. I've got my fingers crossed and am saying my prayers. if anyone else wants to join in feel free to do so! :]
I'll probably be out of touch with the email till Wednesday or Thursday so be aware I will be gone for bit.
The neurosurgeons have said I won't need any surgery on my back and everything looks good there. They won't be letting me out of this brace early though and I can expect to spend another 7 weeks or so in this thing.
AMC/Stroker content. I hope to be able to resume working on this stuff in the next couple of months. It's surprising how much can change so quickly. Try and remember this when your going about your boring daily routine. Some day you may be wishing you are doing it!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:19:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut Rod Bushings again- '70 -'8X
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608181118330.6573@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> I've had problems with the one piece units. The ones I had must have
> been sitting in a warehouse 10+ years -- they cracked up as they were
> installed and didn't last long after.
Same here. I'll be interested in John's experience with the
ones from Kanter.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC engine blocks
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060818182037.99047.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I think AMC made their own blocks. In the current, or
last months, issue of Hemmings there is an article on
the Chryco alum six. They have a short blurb about the
rambler alum six and they say who made it. I don't
have the issue anymore, I take all my mags to the
local Veterans center, but it was made by an ouside source.....Russ
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] stupid questions
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060818182708.3990.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Where was the battle of Bunker Hill fought? It wasn't
fought at Bunker, but rather Breeds hill and Bunker
was where the colonials retreated to.
As far as Grants tomb, I believe that old drunken sot
was dug up and reburied in his hometown, Ohio I
believe. Grants tomb is just a memorial.....Russ
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:40:52 -0400
From: Wayne E LaMothe <superglider@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] stupid questions
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060818.144052.1196.0.superglider@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In actuality, no one is buried in Grants tomb. He and his wife, Julia,
are, however, entombed there.
trivia for today
Wayne
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT) russ hathaway
<russh97309@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
> Where was the battle of Bunker Hill fought? It wasn't
> fought at Bunker, but rather Breeds hill and Bunker
> was where the colonials retreated to.
> As far as Grants tomb, I believe that old drunken sot
> was dug up and reburied in his hometown, Ohio I
> believe. Grants tomb is just a memorial.....Russ
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut bushings
Cc: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608181119350.6573@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
The strut bushings get a lot of attention because they are
basically the weakest, poorest design element in the AMC
front end.
Not from a safety/failure point of view, but considering dynamic
geometry and long term stability they suck. That last part,
will it hold a #@$%%#@!! alignment more than a few months!
Upper bushings, ball joints, etc, component positions don't
displace very much as the parts wear, and they take decades to
wear enough to throw alignment off.
Crappy strut bushings compress, the lower ball joint moves
towards the back of the car, and inward; toe widens, camber
moves towards positive and caster drops.
(I suppose the one advantage is safety: Joe Shoppingmall can
drive repeatedly into a curb stone at 10mph and not crack a
lower A arm.)
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> What a time not to have my books with me!! I wouldn't say that the front
> ends were in a "state of flux" -- there were two versions of one basic
> design. There were two different strut rods and lower arms, and trunnion
> designs -- one for the small cars and one for the big. The small cars
I've not made the big survey necessary, and I don't have access
to the cars, but I know this:
Two piece bushings vs. one-piece bushings: after 1964 (65?) they
are functionally interchangable. There has been a lot of fiddling
by the OEMs and aftermarket on design, so clearly they're either
all idiots or they were attempting to address various problems,
probably longevity and alignment stability. I assume the latter
(until the 1990's when profit-at-any-cost overrode quality
concerns and they turned to the former).
Anyways the old-style one-piece has an installed steel ring that
is supposed to be swaged and spot-welded into the bracket. They
are a major PITA to install, and as Frank and I have separately
discovered, it apperars that none have been manufactured for
DECADES as my NOS set crumbled within a few days (imagine the
cost, imagine the fun). That was 5, 10 years ago for me.
One piece seems to be the original OEM design; nearly all
aftermarket are two-piece. I can see no technical reason for
the one-piece. Any of the quality two-piece designs are just
fine, are just as or more rugged, and vastly easier to install.
No one repros this part as far as I know; good riddance to
bad rubbish.
1963-1964 suspensions: non-adjustable strut rod, upper trunnions,
lower ball joint. The strut rod is an old-fashioned part;
high-quality, forged item, it's tapered, impossible to make
adjustable except via Frank's method (cut+weld) whivch I am
not skilled enough for. Hence my poly/rubber hybrid hack.
1965, 1966, 1967: no experience, but somewhere in here AMC
narrowed the chassis 1". The early 10, 80 chassis mutated into
the 01 chassis. The 63 classis is shockingly similar upside down
to the 70 hornet. (One of the reasons I love AMC engineering.)
68-72, small car, seems to be another class of suspension mods.
73-up, pretty much all the small cars (01's) are the same;
pretty much everything interchanges exactly (spring rates,
brakes and details excepted.)
Note that from 63 up, (I have zero knowledge of Pacers and Mats
I never worked on), all AMC suspension parts interchange or come
very close -- little design change. Even trunnion vs. ball joint,
the smallest change required was made.
Details like built-in steering stops vs. the serrated plate,
I consider BFD, since I wrench to drive, not restore.
Take 1963 and 1979 (two chassis I have a lot of experience with):
You can actually bolt on all of the lower junk from the 79 onto
the 63 car if you space the steering box and idler arm inward;
later chassis are 1" narrower.
The 1963 tie rod ends, pitman arm, steering arms, steering
knuckle are identical to later (79 at least) parts -- EXCEPT
the tapers are LARGE, vs. SMALL on newer parts.
The only difference in the lower ball joint from 1963 to 1979
is the size of the taper.
The upper insert, that contains the spring top seat and upper
arm pivot bushings, looks like it would interchange 1963 / 1979.
Welding involved. The ball joint upper A-arm **almost** fits in
the 63! (Too wide if I recall.) If the upper trunnions weren't
so damned reliable I'd consider it a worthwhile project. (Mine
now have over 300,000 miles on them.)
> used a bolt on turn stop, the big cars had the stop made into the ends
> of the strut rods. The change occurred in 67 or 68 (I think 68 models --
> this is where my books would come in handy!) -- the strut rod changed to
> an adjustable type, and the end that bolted to the lower control arm
> changed on the big cars. I think they went to a bolt on stop at this
> point also. 63-66 (or 67) should be the same, 67 (or 68) to 69 should be
> the same. 70 and later strut rods are straight for the small cars, I
> think the big cars still have a curved end to bolt to the lower control
> arm.
I'm not sure the 70 strut rods are *actually* straight; I think
there still is a left and a right, but I could be wrong.
The various mostly small changes that happened post-65/pre-70
are the "flux" I was talking about.
> I don't know about the strut rod bushings. There does seem to be some
> experimentation with the shape of the rubber and position of the washers
> after 1970. For the most part non-adjustable strut rod bushings are one
> piece, adjustable two piece. But as John Elle indicated in another
> message, there is a one piece in the early 70s with the adjustable strut
> rod.
I wish I had systematic access to all the parts. A full
set of parts catalogs would be a start, but I think actual
side-by-side comparison of hard parts would reveal that a lot
of different-number parts are really microscopic variations on
some one part (eg. holes for shocks, anti-roll bars, etc). Those
of us wrenching and driving would be happy to have wrong-year
parts that work :-)
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 7, Issue 35
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