AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 15
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 15
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- Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 12:00:02 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: I Shouldn't Have Done It (RetroRalph)
2. Re: Band adjustment, little aluminum Borg Warner auto
(Jock J Jocewicz)
3. Re: AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 14 (Jim Boone)
4. The Infamous Grill Is Finally Installed!!!!! (Mr. AMC)
5. Cloth seat material (Jim Boone)
6. Re: oil filters (Frank Swygert)
7. Re: I Shouldn't Have Done It (Frank Swygert)
8. Re: I Shouldn't Have Done It (Frank Swygert)
9. Re: oil filters (Jim Blair)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 11:23:15 -0700
From: "RetroRalph" <retroralph@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I Shouldn't Have Done It
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <00a701c6a1f2$69ed6140$6400a8c0@ralphs1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I think it was a 1946 CJ (farmer's jeep) that I learned to drive, then came
the 1932 Olds, and then the first one I bought was a 1942 Dodge business
coup. This was between 1948-1956.
Yeah, kids are demanding if they can get away with it. One of mine did
their best to break the bank for a while anyway. Had to bail the kid out of
several unfortunate circumstances, provide housing, food, and something to
drive including gas and insurance. A decent, affordable and safe car that
is given to your kid is merely an inadequate piece of junk as far as they
are concerned. It is targeted for abuse and destruction. It must be a
natural law. (The miserable brats...) Two cents more from another dinosaur.
But, I do realize that they are not all like this. especially Mark's boy...
:)
______________________________________________________________
Ralph Ausmann - Hillsboro, OR - > <ralph.ausmann@xxxxxxxxx>
http://mysite.verizon.net/res79g4m/ ... and "check the links"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Savage, Pete" <PSavage@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Mark,
> Things sure have changed since I grew up or I was just an under-valued
> kid!
> Growing up if I wanted a car to drive a car I had to go earn the money to
> do so.
> This included the car, insurance, parking and gas. Granted, things were
> cheaper back in the 60's, but they were not free!
>
> Seems like today kids will turn their noses up to free rides that "are not
> what they really want" and I personally had this experience with my own
> daughter.
>
> I would have killed to be able to drive a "free car" even if it meant I
> had to learn a new way to drive!
>
> I have seen this personally at least three times and I don't quite get it!
> In addition, the kids seem to expect their parents will provide free
> transportation to them, as if it is mandatory to do so and are not at all
> appreciative! How did we ever get to this state of affairs?
> Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: On Behalf Of Mark Price
> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I Shouldn't Have Done It
>
clipped...
" My son says he wants a Wrangler, I can convince him the 97 XJ is close
enough!
> Mark Price
> ---- "Mr. AMC" <AMC74Hornet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> "Jim we have all been there at one time or another." --clipped..>> "Doc"
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:51:31 -0500
From: Jock J Jocewicz <namdra@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Band adjustment, little aluminum Borg Warner
auto
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060707.135131.-16562947.0.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hey Tom,
You sure do bring back some old memories! When I lived in San Jose and
Santa Clara in the 70's, Len's AMC Auto Wreckers in San Jose was one of
the sponsors of the "Were Gone" 69 SC/Rambler that I raced and Stacks got
plenty of my business. From what I have heard, both are no longer in
business.
On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
writes:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Sandwich Maker wrote:
>
> > " I wouldn't be surprised. I've had really good luck with this
> > " trans, even though it's small, air-cooled, and in a largeish
> car
> > " (Classic wagon).
> >
> > otoh it can't be -that- 'largeish' if a 199 will motivate it
> > adequately, automatic and all!
>
> Explain, "adequately".... !
>
> My 1963 Rambler Classic wagon is slow! And it's not just the
> propane conversion (probably cost me 15 hp max), it's just not
> a lot of HP, and it's a 3.31 rear.
>
> My Rambler came from Len's AMC Auto Wrecker in San Jose,
> October 1988. Pulled of the top of a pile of cars headed for
> the crusher. $300. It had an aluminum 196.5ci six, 3-speed
> manual column shift trans. I had them yank the motor, and I
> towed it home behind my 232-powered Hornet (a terrible idea,
> but I was not killed).
>
> I somehow wrestled a 232 into it. Guess what, motor didn't
> fit stock x-member. (Recall this is pre-internet and for me,
> pre-AMC-club, even.) Kyle at (cannot remember name of AMC parts
> place in San Jose, long gone now) told me I needed the 64-up
> x-member. Took Caltrans down, and carried it back on the train.
>
> Bought a custom-built T96+OD from an ex-AMC dealer Ed Stack
> (I think his name was). $400, all new parts. Had big sprad
> between 1st and 2nd, just great for 1st+OD. Stripped 1st gear
> teeth off it cresting a very, very steep hill in San Francisco,
> loaded with camping gear on the car's maiden (sic) voyage,
> a few months later. Took trip anyways, 2nd and 3rd gear only.
>
> (I think the idea was, the original 196.5ci six simply couldn't
> produce enough torque to break a flimsy T96 transmission in
> a 3200 lb car. The 232 apparently could. Did AMC ship 1964+
> big cars with 232 and T96?)
>
> Kyle's biz partner (can't think of his name) up near Sacramento,
> was parting out a 65 Classic, I took the rearend and the M35
> auto trans. Had the trans rebuild by B&E Transmissions in San
> Fran, 1990. (That's the brain-surgeon quality place I wish I
> had down here). A decade later, 1996, pinion shaft sheared on
> San Fernando Road! At a stop light, no less. Rear end rebuilt
> by Dad's Old Car Garage, Culver City, now closed. That cost me
> $1500, but it has a NOS ring and pinion and new bearings.
>
> Still driving on that rebuild! But about 6 - 7 fluid/filter
> changes and half dozen band adjustments. I literally climb
> mountains with this car, you can't believe the places I've
> driven this rambler, loaded to the ... with camping gear. Over
> 10,000 feet, death valley in july, route 80 east to reno,
> 100 miles of dirt roads in NV and UT, stuck in deep sand in
> jeep-ville going to remote hot springs. I even, once, climbed
> mild rocks in the Monitor Valley in Nevada (that was foolish,
> I had to crawl backwards a foot at a time to avoid sitting the
> trans on the rocks).
>
> If I had to choose between my shiny new Hornet and the Rambler,
> I'd choose the old rambler any day.
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
>
Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!!
'06 AMC NATIONALS - SEP. 14-16, 2006 - CORDOVA DRAGWAY PARK, CORDOVA, IL
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974, NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:36:59 -0400
From: "Jim Boone" <fljab@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 14
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY116-F24098B4DDBB479C16BFECEAC740@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Wayne E LaMothe <superglider@xxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I shouldn't have done it...
>Dang you!!! I really wanted that wagon but could not justify another
>car. My wife even said buy it!!!! Glad it went to someone on the list
>and let me know if it was as advertised.
I'm glad you didn't bid against me!! Although, it wouldn't have taken much
to do that. There was one bid on it, and it went one $25 bump when I bid,
and that's what it went for. I had figured out what it was worth to me,
plus this "auction" place tacks on $175 for admin and ebay fees. So, $1700
for this I felt was reasonable. If it's as good as the description and
pictures, I think it'll be OK. I'll keep everyone posted.
I will have the '67 Rebel wagon for sale mainly because I'm running out of
room, and don't want to set it outside. Anyone interested?
PS, the wife started talking again, I think the roughest part is over...
>From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I shouldn't have done it...
>Bring the 65 to Morgantown, head east, pick up the wagon head south, by the
>time you get home, your car count will be even!
Mark, I'd do that if I could! I don't have a tow vehicle or a trailer,
which is part of my plan with this wagon. I probably have lots of stuff
you'd like...
>From: Arfon <Arfon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Cloth seat material
>
> >Florida cars need cloth seats and A/C.
>
>Oh you big puss! In Texas we ride around on Metal Seats! ...BLACK metal
>seats! ...AND with the windows rolled up!
I was born in Texas, why do think I moved? I remember riding around in my
grandpa's old truck with vinyl, no air, nor air in the house - just an attic
fan.
Jim Boone
Mims, FL
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 17:56:23 -0400
From: AMC74Hornet@xxxxxxxxx (Mr. AMC)
Subject: [AMC-List] The Infamous Grill Is Finally Installed!!!!!
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx, amc_club_of_socal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
AmericanMotorsModelbuilders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
BaadAssGremlins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, MacsOrphanCarGroup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <5705-44AED887-266@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Nice weather allowed me to have some work done on my car and me to
install the resto's grill. I had grease oil and all filters and normal
maintaince done on th car today. The missing screw on the auxiliary
elect. cooling fan bracket was installed allowing me to install the
grill. The 2 quart finned aluminum tranny oil pan is now in and it
clears the hump in my driveway and the speed bump in the nursing home my
mother is in. On the grill installation I would not let anyone do it but
me with about 140 hours into the resto and paint on it and the headlight
doors. Extra care was needed in areas where the mounts were cracked or
broken that I repaired. Everything was just snugged up. I will put the
car in direct sunlight exposing the grill for 3-4 hours tomorrow to
soften the plastic up a little and then tighten all the screws and bolts
up tight and let it cool. You have to finesse 30+ year old plastic so
it will not be stressed and crack again. I also added reinforcement
pieces of plexiglass where the factory should have added them behind the
grill. The thermostat for the fan still needs to be installed and the 3
way switch and the polished coolant recovery can next week. Over the
weekend I will continue to strip the 77 AMX flairs for paint. BUT THE
GRILL IS FINALLY INSTALLED!!!!!!!!
"Doc"
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 18:02:25 -0400
From: "Jim Boone" <fljab@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Cloth seat material
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY116-F357C1BAF336531C2C20C79AC740@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Thanks to Joe Fulton for giving me some factory interior fabric codes. I
called SMS, and they're sending me 3 samples, only one of which I believe
would be correct for a Matador Wagon, but if I don't like that one, I'll
still pick a stock AMC pattern.
274V-Striped Scorio-correct for Matador Wagon
274A-Plain Green-not available on wagons
294A-Standard Ambo fabric
Jim Boone
Mims, FL
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 00:10:51 -0400
From: Frank Swygert <farna@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] oil filters
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<ADVANCES62NXRPmcarc000001e6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Could be that Puradyn is now making some of the Fram products, and
vice-versa. At any rate, it's obvious that Fram changed the way they
manufacture oil filters, even if they didn't change manufacturers, a
few years ago. To me it's now a bottom line filter. Wix still uses a
cotton batting, and is one of a few premium filters still being made.
Manufacturers go for the bottom line. As long as the cheaper made Fram
filters keep selling for the same price at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc., they
will continue to make them regardless if it's a good filter or not.
They just rake in a bit more money. If they lose a few sales becasue
the real car guys know better, it's made up for in the lower cost of
making the product. As long as the company isn't losing anything, they
simply don't care if the product is that good or not. I have a
conscience and couldn't sell an inferior product knowingly, most
business people and accountants apparently don't.
On July 7, 2006 Todd Tomason wrote:
> I checked your link to Puradyn, and it doesn't say they acquired
Fram. It
> says they entered into a strategic alliance with Honeywell Consumer
Products
> Group, makers of Fram. It sounds like they plan to market each
others
> products. The Fram website still says they're part of Honeywell.
>
> Todd
>
> On Friday 07 July 2006 02:15, Jim Blair wrote:
> > Just did a little research and as of '02, it was acquired by
Puradyn
> > International (UK HQ)
> > http://www.puradyn.com/company/ir_shareholders.html
> >
> > I think these guys were the previous "owners" or at least one of
the
> > manufacturers (I recall the name on several filters)
> >
> > http://www.xingyuan.com/template/develop-e.htm
> >
> >
> > From: Glen Hoag <hoag@xxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: [AMC-List] oil filters
> > To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Message-ID: <a06230901c0d2f2b0f123@[192.168.123.144]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
> >
> > Which offshore company would that be?
> >
> > Fram is currently a unit of Honeywell, Inc, which merged with
> > AlliedSignal at the end of 1999. Honeywell is an old line
> > American
> > company with global operations, with its headquarters in Morris
> > Township, NJ. The Fram unit is based in Danbury, CT, along with
> > the
> > Prestone brand, which AlliedSignal acquired from Union Carbide
> > in
> > 1985.
> >
> > --Glen
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
=============================================================
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 00:22:46 -0400
From: Frank Swygert <farna@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I Shouldn't Have Done It
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<ADVANCES62bdkSmLAzt000001e8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Convince your son.... who died and left HIM in charge? ;>
Convince him that if you're basically giving him the vehicle, or at
least free use of said vehicle for a while, that it's much better than
walking! When he can afford to pay at least some of the expenses he can
get what he wants -- maybe give him the Jeep at that point so he can
use it for a trade-in. I had no problem telling my daughter she was
getting what we could afford to pay cash for so we wouldn't have to pay
a large insurance bill. If she really likes it that's a plus! So she
drove my mother in laws old 93 Grand Am for a while -- wich she wasn't
real thrilled with. When it was wrecked (she was hit by someone else)
the insurance company totaled it -- had a crumpled fender, headlight
surround, and bumper. If I hadn't been off in Korea I'd have fixed it.
Instead we took the $2000 and spent another $500 on a high mileage
Toyota Corolla, a 2001 model though. It has a little wear, but is still
going strong.
I bought my other daughter a car but she didn't like it much. I told
her to sell it or trade it in on another, it was hers, but don't expect
any more from me! She did, but this time she saved a bit of money,
borrowed some from her mom, and got something she could pay for and
save on insurance. She did the same thing a couple years earlier, but
got talked into a car she was upside down on. Someone ran a stop light
and totaled that car, and she owed $1200 after the pay-off. That's when
I gave her the last car, the 94 Nissan I drove while my Rambler was
being built and I took to Korea. She was just lucky I had the thing --
was planning on selling it when I got back from Korea.
On July 7, 2006 markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> My wife told me this morning that she wouldn't have six vehicles
around as we have 5 now. [this started when I asked if she was wanting
to get rid of the Jeep, my mistake!] Anyway, I said, " Really, Who died
and left you in charge"? We were both in a good mood for a change and
it was ll said in good humour, but the wirting is on the wall for the
Jeep if I don't get a move on teaching my son to drive stick! If I'm to
save it from the sales floor I need get him driving a clucth and asking
his mom to keep it! she'll keep it for him. Plus to me it seems rather
short sighted to sell off a vehicle with 62,000 miles and keep one with
120,000 !
> My son says he wants a Wrangler, I can convince him the 97 XJ is
close enough!
> --
> Mark Price
> markprice242ATadelphia.net
> Morgantown, WV
>
>
> ---- "Mr. AMC" <AMC74Hornet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Jim we have all been there at one time or another. In some
instances a
> > wife not talking to you might be considered a blessing. It is in my
case
> > as my wife when she gets started sounds like the school teacher on
the
> > Charlie Brown cartoons, wa wa wa wa wa wa. My orange Hornet
surfaced for
> > sale the second time after I had chased the car for 6 years and had
been
> > screwed out of it 4 years previous to me finally buying it. I got
it by
> > chance as I had words with my wife and refused to go to her
girlfriends
> > grandson's birthday party. A friend called me up told me the car
was for
> > sale, took me there, lent me the 500$ for the car for 3 days,
borrowed
> > his bosses tow truck and stored the car for me for 5 days till I
got
> > plates for it. That's what you call a real friend. The wife came
home at
> > 6 pm from the party and I told her I bought the car. She made a
face and
> > said whatever and walked away and never said another word. Her
girl
> > friend stuck her 2 cents in and said "what does he need another
car
> > for?" I now have 2 Hornet's and a beater 77 Malibu and I am the
only
> > driver, my wife doesn't drive. I wanted it and I bought it. After
> > working 2-3 jobs at one time over the years and doing with out to
raise
> > 3 kids it is now time for ME!!!!!!
> > "Doc"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > AMC-List mailing list
> > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> > or go to http://www.amc-list.com
=============================================================
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 00:28:33 -0400
From: Frank Swygert <farna@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I Shouldn't Have Done It
To: amcrelay@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<ADVANCES623iIxqgitI000001ea@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
I'm a bit guilty of it myself, but it's the parents, not the kids. We
reap what we sow, I'm afraid!!
On July 7, 2006 Savage, Peter wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Things sure have changed since I grew up or I was just an
under-valued kid!
> Growing up if I wanted a car to drive a car I had to go earn the
money to do so.
> This included the car, insurance, parking and gas. Granted, things
were cheaper back
> in the 60's, but they were not free!
>
> Seems like today kids will turn their noses up to free rides that
"are not what they really want"
> and I personally had this experience with my own daughter.
>
> I would have killed to be able to drive a "free car" even if it meant
I had to learn a new way to drive!
>
> I have seen this personally at least three times and I don't quite
get it! In addition, the kids
> seem to expect their parents will provide free transportation to
them, as if it is mandatory to
> do so and are not at all appreciative!
>
> How did we ever get to this state of affairs?
>
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Mark Price
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 9:05 AM
> To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Mr. AMC
> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I Shouldn't Have Done It
>
> My wife told me this morning that she wouldn't have six vehicles
around as we have 5 now. [this started when I asked if she was wanting
to get rid of the Jeep, my mistake!] Anyway, I said, " Really, Who died
and left you in charge"? We were both in a good mood for a change and
it was ll said in good humour, but the wirting is on the wall for the
Jeep if I don't get a move on teaching my son to drive stick! If I'm to
save it from the sales floor I need get him driving a clucth and asking
his mom to keep it! she'll keep it for him. Plus to me it seems rather
short sighted to sell off a vehicle with 62,000 miles and keep one with
120,000 !
> My son says he wants a Wrangler, I can convince him the 97 XJ is
close enough!
> --
> Mark Price
> markprice242ATadelphia.net
> Morgantown, WV
>
>
> ---- "Mr. AMC" <AMC74Hornet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Jim we have all been there at one time or another. In some
instances a
> > wife not talking to you might be considered a blessing. It is in my
case
> > as my wife when she gets started sounds like the school teacher on
the
> > Charlie Brown cartoons, wa wa wa wa wa wa. My orange Hornet
surfaced for
> > sale the second time after I had chased the car for 6 years and had
been
> > screwed out of it 4 years previous to me finally buying it. I got
it by
> > chance as I had words with my wife and refused to go to her
girlfriends
> > grandson's birthday party. A friend called me up told me the car
was for
> > sale, took me there, lent me the 500$ for the car for 3 days,
borrowed
> > his bosses tow truck and stored the car for me for 5 days till I
got
> > plates for it. That's what you call a real friend. The wife came
home at
> > 6 pm from the party and I told her I bought the car. She made a
face and
> > said whatever and walked away and never said another word. Her
girl
> > friend stuck her 2 cents in and said "what does he need another
car
> > for?" I now have 2 Hornet's and a beater 77 Malibu and I am the
only
> > driver, my wife doesn't drive. I wanted it and I bought it. After
> > working 2-3 jobs at one time over the years and doing with out to
raise
> > 3 kids it is now time for ME!!!!!!
> > "Doc"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > AMC-List mailing list
> > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> > or go to http://www.amc-list.com
=============================================================
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 00:55:14 -0700
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] oil filters
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F30D5CED0DB093CE33CD5D5AC750@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Guess I read more into it (did a quick glance) It may have been only the
manufacturing plant was shipped overseas. Dang head injury anyways! (I used
to have the notice we got when I worked at CSK back @'99)
From: Todd Tomason <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] oil filters
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200607070615.49506.jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I checked your link to Puradyn, and it doesn't say they
acquired Fram. It
says they entered into a strategic alliance with Honeywell
Consumer Products
Group, makers of Fram. It sounds like they plan to market each
others
products. The Fram website still says they're part of
Honeywell.
Todd
_________________________________________________________________
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 15
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