Re: [Amc-list] My Two Cents on Hydrogen etc

[adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)]

" From: Archimedes <Freedom@xxxxxxxx>
" 
" 
" adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker) said:
" 
" []
" 
" I'm not sure sequestering carbon is all it's baked up to be.
" 
" Hmmm.... No pun intended.
" 
" Atmospheric carbon levels (except since ~ 1700's) have fallen to such
" a low level that plant suffocation may not be far off the radar.
" During the history of life on earth, atmospheric CO2 has been in
" concentrations between 500-4000 ppm; whereas now it's down to around
" ~300 ppm; and the long-term trend is still towards decline.  At ~250
" ppm, some plants start dying off; and every shedding of a few thousand
" more ppm's means more varieties will go extinct.  Any that go extinct
" will take the fauna that have adapted to live alongside them down too.
" Higher temperatures & higher carbon levels have equated throughout the
" earth's entire history with more explosive life-creation and expansion.
" 
" The lower temps and CO2 levels we have now mean intermittent ice ages,
" which kill everything; and a much slower pace of life arising and
" finding niches to exploit.  Think of how much life you will find in an
" acre of rain forest vs how much you will find in Siberia.

this is the first i've heard of this argument; it has piqued my
curiosity.  what's the source of data for [pre]historic co2 levels?

" >" And then there's the whole debate about food vs fuel.  Is it better to
" >" use corn/soy crops for ethanol/diesel or to feed people?
" >
" >burning food as fuel is definitely stupid.  they looked around for
" >something to run engines from and found alcohol brewed from
" >sugar/starch, and not pausing to consider food competition never mind
" >efficiency stopped looking.  this has made adm very happy...
" 
" I'm sure plenty of people are happy; not least among them the
" politicos who get votes for pushing environmentalists' latest hotfixes
" that don't work.

happiness, i would venture to say, that has everything to do with self
interest and nothing to do with national energy/economic policy.

" I have an enviro friend who advocated ethanol twenty years ago.  Now
" that it's here, he complains about it.

he's finally seeing a downside that wasn't apparent when ethanol was
just a potential niche fuel.  a similar now-hidden downside with
biodiesel is what to do with the massive glycerine byproduct amounts.
uses will be found for it; uses -must- be found for it.

" >cellulosic is much better on both counts; you can use any plant, and
" >nearly all of it instead of just the small fraction that is starch or
" >sugar.  there's nothing comparable for biodlesel yet, but plants that
" >produce inedible oils are just starting to be investigated.
" 
" Actually I'm not sure aither statement can hold up any more.  The real
" solution for growing our way past "fanatic oil" is probably with algae
" production.  Experimental algae farms are now wringing 60-70 times
" more useful plant mass than any other type of crop known.  It can be
" inferred that algae grown in CO2-enriched air can yield oil that can
" be converted into biodiesel (and one plant is doing this now on a
" small scale).  In addition, the system does not require fertile land
" or potable water.
" 
" See: http://www.oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

i forgot about algae!

and if rising co2 is a problem, algae farms could be colocated with
smokestacks so that co2-rich emisisons could be routed directly into
the growth water.

" I think it likely that in 15-20 years, our economy will run on
" biodiesel.  Better get that 232 ready!

this sounds to me like certainly the most sensible future, but
politicians and power interests don't always do what's sensible for
society at large.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought
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