AMC-List Digest, Vol 5, Issue 55
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 5, Issue 55
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- Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:57:00 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: backfire through carb (Tom Jennings)
2. Re: AM radio computer MP3 player... (Tom Jennings)
3. Creeping overheating. (Orlin Pettit)
4. American rear ends (russ hathaway)
5. Brake balance valve (russ hathaway)
6. brake balancing (russ hathaway)
7. Re: AM radio computer MP3 player... (Mark Price)
8. Re: Brake balance valve (Tom Jennings)
9. Re: How I identified a bad radiator and choice for
replacement in my 70 AMX road racer (Jock J Jocewicz)
10. Re: hydrogen fuels (Eddie Stakes)
11. Listening to AMC (Brien Tourville)
12. Fw: A brief body and paint primer (RetroRalph)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:32:10 -0700
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] backfire through carb
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <1151425930.17562.103.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 08:21 -0700, Jim Blair wrote:
> A: If you are running a Carter BBD with feedback carb, the timing will self
> adjust as long as the knock sensor functions unless it's had the Nutter
> Bypass done.
No, Weber 32/36 DGEV. (32mm primary, 36mm secondary) on water-cooled
manifold. Duraspark II ignition. I took the top off the carb, looking
for gasket bits etc, it's clean, jets not plugged, etc.
Retiming it lessened the problem, but it still backfires at speed and
heavy load and low vacuum. (Local road testing vs. my 45 mile, 70mph
commute).
I have one of those timing lights with the knob to offset advance; I
used it to measure mechanical vs. vacuum advance.
I have about 15 degrees mechanical advance, about 30 deg. vacuum advance
(talking very round numbers here) 45 total. I was not trying for
precision, just go/nogo checks, so it could be 5 degrees error each.
With 8 degrees static timing that seems like a lot of total advance.
With these settings and 87 octane gas it never, ever pings, so I'll bump
timing up a few degrees at a time and get it to ping, then measure
carefully this time.
I too tune by ear; but a motor ought to run approximately right at the
factory settings.
>
> From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] backfire through carb
> To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Message-ID: <1151307945.28671.64.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Timing.
>
> Retarded.
>
> Me I mean.
>
> On the road trip to Santa Fe last week I'd retarded it on the
> side-of-the-road "a few degrees" to deal with the crap gas I was
> buying.
> A "few" turned out to be 10. Can't beat actual measurement!
> Didn't
> pinging though, uhuh.
>
> The 87-93 Clymer's Jeep 258 book I have, says the carburetted
> motor
> wants 9 - 11 btdc static timing. I never bothered to look in the
> newer
> books before [but wanted to double-check the new-fangled timing
> mark
> setup], I assumed (ahem) it would be the same as older models
> (usually 4
> - 6btdc). Wrong again.
>
> I set it to 8btdc. I'll find out tomorrow on the drive to Irvine
> (45 mi.
> each way). I hope I'm not wrong a third time.
>
>
>
> -
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:45:01 -0700
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AM radio computer MP3 player...
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <1151426701.17562.117.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 06:08 -0700, Mark Price wrote:
> Us old guys with high frequency hearing loss don't notice much if you
> record at the highest resolution [or whatever they call it!]. I
> personally don't have the patience to do more than burn some mix CDs
> from windows media! My kids have their desktops jammed with stuff and
> MP3 players, one has an IPOD. It's all status symbol crap. But kinda
> neat in it's own way. My Sony head unit in the American has an IPOD
> input, never tried to use it. The Cd changer in the Cherokee has MP3
> disc capability times 12 discs, never tried to do it either! Just to
> d@mn#d! old and grouchy!
Probably right on the mp3 high-freq part. A car is a lousy place to
listen to music, also, anything loud enough sounds good!
I like old cars mainly for the simplicity. I have to have an intimate
relationship with it's workings; that's fine, I like that. But I wanted
a sound system that was 100% in line what what makes driving 40 year old
cars so good, that brutally stripped down clean functionality mixed with
decent (occasionally good) design.
Car controls are BIG, pull, push, CLICK; lever move inches, switches
click loudly, are made of metal and big plastic, body color or chrome or
black. I didn't want a delicate, flimsy, thief-inviting,
confetti-colored thing with microscopic fussy little controls. I wanted
BIG KNOBS GO CLICK. Cars are body prosthetics, a physical world, not a
virtual one.
I did get rather carried away with it. It's the sort of stuff I make
though, other than cars, and I teach this stuff to grad students, so
it's the sort of thing I can pick at and get done over time.
(I wish my Rambler was old enough to have a tube AM radio.)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:46:59 -0400
From: "Orlin Pettit" <orlinpettit@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Creeping overheating.
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY108-F321B41134130ABAA13D44BB17E0@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Have you checked to see if you are getting exaust gas in the coolant? The
head gasket may have never sealed correctly. Last month had a new Hooters
Pro Cup engine that ended up with about a quart of coolant in the oil after
a run on the dyno... and we are supposed to what we're doing!
Orlin in SC/USA
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] American rear ends
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060627173743.59490.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I vote for Jessica Simpson. Anyways, the big nut rear
was on the 64 also, I believe. At least mine came that
way. The Hornet, Gremlin, et al rear end will not bolt
directly into the American. I tried!! And since the
whole rear will not fit, just a hair too wide, the
axles won't fit directly either as they use the same
carrier. It seems if you want to ditch the big nut get
a 65 or later American rear, my 65 doesn't have the
big nut. I swapped in a 69 wagons rear into my 64 and
I will put the Hornets brakes on that rear end by
pulling the axle apart. They use the same bearing and
seal, so it looks to be piece of cake.....Russ
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Brake balance valve
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060627174901.78529.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
So Brian, do I understand that if I don't care for the
warning light (when I run into that semi I will know
the brakes failed) I can just do without that doo dad.
I would like to hook up my brake sending unit off that
first junction, then get an adjustable prop valve like
all them big city hot rods have.....Russ
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:50:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] brake balancing
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060627175015.47680.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Or was that you Tom who answered?.....Russ
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:05:26 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AM radio computer MP3 player...
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <5656905.1151431526878.JavaMail.root@web25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I agree with the big click loud part! That's one reason I was happy to get the Factory 4 disc changer for my truck on Ebay. It is a lot closer to that then the aftermarket stuff. I put the sony unit in the American because I thought it was a good idea at the time. After having it for a while I realize that I don't and probably won't ever fool with all it's little intacite workings. The single knob is hard to grasp, the little writing beside pushbuttons impossible to read! I typically use th eremote as at least I can figure out the few buttons on it and how to get it to do what I want it to do!
I'm quite happy with it's Rambler mentality sound system, except for the head unit [$195] it is all low cost stuff. Two Flea market Jensen 10" subs in a box behind the rear seat powered by a cheap Jensen 300 watt max amp $50 all. Two 8" Poly Radioshack home woofers and two 4 1/2 two way [I forget the brand or cost] in the front doors. On the rear deck are two surface mount three ways from radio shack $69.99. The rear deck speakers are driven by a dinky 40 watt jensen amp. I splt the sound in the front doors with some old home speaker crossovers mounted under the dash. Sony unit has 4 volt preamp out puts, with a seperate one for the subs with seperate controls. Surprisinlgy for has low buck as it is with a litttle fiddling even my 15 year old son thinks it sounds good. I like to turn it up some at times, but I like the bass to just be solid, not the overpowering stuff the kids like. Best part of the system is except for the head unit and the surface mount rear speakers it !
is all hidden behind the rear seat and behind the tweed door panels! The headunit has a removable face so if on the rare occasion I park it somewhere and take the face plate it is pretty much invisible. Besides, no self respecting audio thief would take anything but the head unit anyway as in their mind the rest of it is CRAP!
Thae Ambassador is getting a factory AM/FM and some speakers. I wish I had the wherewithall to get one of the two I have working!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 06:08 -0700, Mark Price wrote:
> > Us old guys with high frequency hearing loss don't notice much if you
> > record at the highest resolution [or whatever they call it!]. I
> > personally don't have the patience to do more than burn some mix CDs
> > from windows media! My kids have their desktops jammed with stuff and
> > MP3 players, one has an IPOD. It's all status symbol crap. But kinda
> > neat in it's own way. My Sony head unit in the American has an IPOD
> > input, never tried to use it. The Cd changer in the Cherokee has MP3
> > disc capability times 12 discs, never tried to do it either! Just to
> > d@mn#d! old and grouchy!
>
> Probably right on the mp3 high-freq part. A car is a lousy place to
> listen to music, also, anything loud enough sounds good!
>
> I like old cars mainly for the simplicity. I have to have an intimate
> relationship with it's workings; that's fine, I like that. But I wanted
> a sound system that was 100% in line what what makes driving 40 year old
> cars so good, that brutally stripped down clean functionality mixed with
> decent (occasionally good) design.
>
> Car controls are BIG, pull, push, CLICK; lever move inches, switches
> click loudly, are made of metal and big plastic, body color or chrome or
> black. I didn't want a delicate, flimsy, thief-inviting,
> confetti-colored thing with microscopic fussy little controls. I wanted
> BIG KNOBS GO CLICK. Cars are body prosthetics, a physical world, not a
> virtual one.
>
> I did get rather carried away with it. It's the sort of stuff I make
> though, other than cars, and I teach this stuff to grad students, so
> it's the sort of thing I can pick at and get done over time.
>
>
> (I wish my Rambler was old enough to have a tube AM radio.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:35:47 -0700
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Brake balance valve
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <1151433347.17562.129.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:49 -0700, russ hathaway wrote:
> So Brian, do I understand that if I don't care for the
> warning light (when I run into that semi I will know
> the brakes failed) I can just do without that doo dad.
> I would like to hook up my brake sending unit off that
> first junction, then get an adjustable prop valve like
> all them big city hot rods have.....Russ
Yup. I now wish I had done just that when I replumbed the brakes in my
Hornet; I recreated the factory setup (with later model brake-imbalance
switch setup). I should have just plumbed it without that silly valve,
it would have saved a lot of clutter and inconvenient brakeline bending.
The check valve in the master cylinder provides the held-pressure for
the rear drum brakes.
You can set front/rear balance with the aftermarket prop valve I think
Doc mentioned, or simply choose the right rear wheel cylinder bore
(which will get you as close as the factory does it). Most of the rear
wheel cyls I've looked at in catalogs (bendix, wagner) have at least two
bore diameters for the same fit part. If you're roadracing or
autocrossing etc the valve would probably be worth the effort.
As far as I can tell, that valve just turns the dash lamp on when the
front or rear system is basically out of fluid (or shoes slipped out
from beyond-extreme wear, broken parts, accident, etc). I'm all for
safety, but IMHO it's not worth the system cost. Even casual maintenance
is worth a lot more.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> _______________________________________________
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> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:00:31 -0500
From: Jock J Jocewicz <namdra@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] How I identified a bad radiator and choice for
replacement in my 70 AMX road racer
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060627.140031.-16352093.0.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hal,
Have you tried Doug Noland for an aluminum radiator? He is listed on
page 23 of the latest NAMDRA newsletter. His website is at
http://www.customaluminumradiators.com.
But it does sound like you have another problem, not the radiator, like a
head gasket leak, etc.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:50:59 +0000 hal.lynch@xxxxxxx writes:
> Hi guys,
>
> I am going through an interesting issue with my 70 AMX road racer
> and thought I'd share the experience so far and request any input
> before I proceed.
>
> Back in 1999 I removed my Allison NASCAR engine to refresh and store
> in favor of a mild 401 that I had built by Ron Waters at WSC. The
> engine is a copy of his very successful road race engines. I tpped
> his extensive r oad race knowledge to build a second 'mule'motor for
> my car that I will use for street use, driver training and chassis
> setup for the AMX. It basically has been blueprinted, balanced,
> ported and plumbed for dry sump oiling. Outside of that it uses all
> the same accessories of my NASCAR engine.
>
> Once I installed this engine in my car back in late 2003 I
> immediately had a problem with water temperature creep, where the
> water temp would just keep rising as it idled. I shut it down once
> it reached 210 and scratched my head.. How could a brand new engine
> running proven accessories that supported a NASCAR engine and never
> ran hot ata all now fail me?
>
> Long story short, I found pretty quickly saw that the ratiator was
> not getting hot, removed it hand sure enough it was plugged. Now
> this was a custom 7 core radiator built in 1985 by now defunct
> Webster Radiator in NY . It was made on 7 cores of 3/8 tube in
> cross flow pattern and litterally didn't have 500 miles on it as I
> primarily showed the car off a trailer.
>
> I had the radiator 'rodded' to clean it out and merrily proceeded to
> reinstall it. Fast forward through a move to Northern IL I never
> proceeded with the further testing till this spring. Pull the car
> offf the jacks this spring and start it up to test the cooling
> system and same thing happens, but much very slowly. The engine can
> idle fine but as soon as I add any heat by driving it or reving it
> it can't disapate the heat generated. This time, however, the
> radiator was seemingly getting hot. Take the radiator out again and
> over to a shop and have it flow tested. Told it was fine and
> reinstalled. Start the ccar and it still has water temp creep. I
> decided to enlist a second pair of eyes and have a race engine
> builder watch the car warm up with me and a friend of his was
> watching and recommended using an infared heat gun to measure the
> engine and rediator temp as she warms up. As dwe do we see that the
> engine warms up fine with no apparent hot spots. The top few inch!
> es of t
> he radiator are engine temp but as you test the lower rows of the
> radiator the temp drops radically. (i.e top inlet 170 degrees and
> bottom of the radiator 100 degrees). We believe that only a few
> rows of this monster radiator are working and that the tiny 3/8
> tubing may have accelerated its clogging. I learned that today
> radiator technology has changed dramatically from the eighties. New
> radiators use 1 inch to one and a half inch tubing to cool with
> fewer rows.
>
> So I'm tossing this radiator TFO (the f--- out) and looking to
> purchase a new aluminum radiator. So far my best choice is an
> aluminum Griffin radiator using NASCAR standard size of 27.5 long
> and 15.5 high, Ford style inlets and outlets. Three rows 1.25 inch
> tubing rated for up to 600 hp. Priced at $270.
>
> So, does anyone have any input on the size and shape of a aluminum
> radiator for a 70 AMX or other AMX radiator support of this size?
> Hope the radiator technology issue of core tubing size is of value
> to everyone running around with a older radiator.
>
> Hal
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
>
Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!!
'06 AMC NATIONALS - SEP. 14-16, 2006 - CORDOVA DRAGWAY PARK, CORDOVA, IL
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974, NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:40:15 -0500
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] hydrogen fuels
To: "AMC List" <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <00a601c69a1d$9e4eeee0$28f1b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Brien, AMC was experimenting with hydrogen, electric, and propane to name a
few 'alternative fuels' back in the 1970s. Unfortunately many people thought
the were nuts for doing so, as gas was plentiful, and cheap. i don't even
think they got any throwdown government grants for doing such although
chances are the feds are tossing money at research.
http://www.planethoustonamx.com/parts/hydrogen_powered_gremlin_ebay.jpg
http://www.planethoustonamx.com/mo_stuff/2.htm2.jpg
http://www.planethoustonamx.com/mo_stuff/amc%20al1.jpg
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*email is currently HEAVY
Call if important*
www.planethoustonamx.com
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:26:00 -0400
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Listening to AMC
To: carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <44A14E08.7194.516684@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hydergeine 1mg 4 times day fosters
regrowth of electrical connections in
the brain case.
Since I've been with that and Omacor
Omega 3 Lipid Capsules - the Tinnitise
I had has gone & hearing improved.
AMC content:
finally setteled on the front end treatment
for 'the coupe' - found the parts in Oakdale Ct. ,
quite a trek from here, but has everything I need
for $300.00.
milnersXcoupe
NEW YORK
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:54:07 -0700
From: "RetroRalph" <retroralph@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Fw: A brief body and paint primer
To: "AMC-List" <AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <004401c69a23$75ad43a0$6400a8c0@ralphs1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I got this from a friend here in Oregon that is a member of the Alfa Club.
I think it is worth passing on.
______________________________________________________________
Ralph Ausmann - Hillsboro, OR - > <ralph.ausmann@xxxxxxxxx>
http://mysite.verizon.net/res79g4m/ ... and "check the links"
_________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Hiatt
To: ralph.ausmann@xxxxxxxxxxx
>From the Alfa bb website. I thought it was pretty interesting.
___________________________________________________________________
Body Filler and Lead: One Man's Opinions
What is the best filler to use on my vintage car? I see this question many
times over on many different sites, so I thought I would add my two cents in
as a professional restorer.
First of all, let me explain that body filler, be it made of lead,
aluminized reinforced polyester (i.e. All Metal or Metal-2-Metal),
fiberglass reinforced polyester (i.e. Kitty Hair or Glass Lite), polyester
filler (i.e. Bondo, Z-Grip, or Rage), or a glaze (i.e. Metal Glaze or
Ever-Glaze) are all designed to do the same thing; smooth out small
imperfections in sheet metal work. Each of them has there own strengths and
weaknesses, which I will get into in a moment.
None of them are intended to fill large dents, more than a quarter inch
deep. All of them, except glaze, are designed to go on top of bare metal. As
well, some restorers apply them over epoxy primer with good results.
Excepting glaze, they are not designed to be used on top of paint or most
primers.
As in most things related to automobiles, the quality of the underlying work
defines the quality of the final repair. Most horror stories regarding
filler (i.e. Bondo) come the misuse of the product. You cannot use it over
rust, existing bodywork, or apply it too thick and have a lasting repair.
When used as intended, all fillers will last the life of the car.
In order to have a long lasting repair, they must be applied according to
directions (I know, I know, but seriously, read the directions) and ALL rust
must be removed. Any of these products used over rust will only buy you a
few weeks or months and then the rust will return.
The manufacturers recommend no more than a quarter inch of applied filler.
So, the sheet metal should be as straight as practical. What does practical
mean? Well, if someone is doing a $2,500 complete paint job, it means doing
as little sheet metal work as possible and slathering the car with filler.
If someone is doing a $5,000 complete paint job, practical means all metal
is finished to within a quarter inch overall. This is within the published
limits of the polyester based fillers. If someone is doing a $10,000 paint
job, it means getting the panels as straight as possible and using less than
a 1/16 of inch of filler in small areas. While, I don't do it, I have seen
shops use a reinforced filler to build up half-inch areas over a 2 foot x 2
foot section and have the repair last for several years. The manufacturers,
and I, are not recommending it, but I have seen it work.
There are several classes of filler: lead, polyester, easy-sanding,
reinforced, and glaze.
Lead is the original filler. It is a non-ferrous metal (i.e. won't rust and
a magnet will not stick to it) that melts at a low temperature and
relatively (compared to other metals) easy to work. It's advantages are:
when the paint is removed from a car, one cannot tell whether the repair was
done at the factory, before 1970, or by someone who used original materials.
For some, it comes with bragging rights, "my car has no Bondo, only lead."
The disadvantages of lead are: it work hardens as the car vibrates and
becomes brittle over time; it is less flexible and has less adhesion than
modern polyester fillers; it is more expensive; it is more difficult to work
than modern fillers; and, the fumes it puts off while being applied are
toxic. Personally, I see no reason to use lead, other than someone wants to
be original and recognizes that the repair will be more expensive and less
durable than one done with modern materials. Unless you are painting your
car in lacquer for originality sake you should really not be using lead.
Regular polyester filler (i.e. Bondo, 3M Lightweight Body Filler, etc.) is
made of polyester and a bonding agent. It is light, easily malleable,
flexible, and has a low tensile strength. The repairs will typically have
pinholes and need to be glazed before finishing. When applied in a thin
layer, it is extremely durable and strong. However, it gets its strength
from the underlying sheet metal.
You can think about it this way, it is very hard to poke your finger through
plastic wrap once it has been vacuum-applied over a product you buy. But, it
is very easy to poke a hole in a roll of plastic wrap. The strength comes
from the substrate.
Easy sanding fillers (i.e. Evercoat Rage Extreme, Z-Grip, etc) have
hattonite or talc added to them to make them easier to sand and have fewer
to no pinholes. Trust me, get this type of filler, it is much less work,
even if it is more expensive.
Reinforced filler is a polyester-filler that has some sort of strengthening
compound added to it, generally aluminum beads or fiberglass. All Metal and
Kitty Hair are examples. This filler has a much greater tensile strength and
is suitable to use in places where lead would have been used by the factory.
There is a bit of a religious war as to whether fiberglass or aluminum beads
are a better, but both are very strong and flexible. Neither product will
leave a finished surface and will need to be skim coated by another filler
and or glaze.
Glaze comes in a tube and is designed to fill very minor imperfections.
Glaze unlike other fillers, can be used on top of existing paint and primer,
so it can be used to fill small surface imperfections (stone chips, etc,)
before a car is painted. It should not be used in large areas or as the
basis for a repair.
The way I approach the work is as follows. I do not use an epoxy base coat.
I repair and work the metal to within 1/32 of an inch overall, with the
occasional 1/16 inch problem area. I apply All Metal (aluminized reinforced
filler) in the problem areas and for covering weld seams and factory panel
issues. I may or may not use some All Metal to slightly change the shape of
panel openings (trunk area, door openings, etc). This is dictated by how
perfect the car is to be. I personally prefer to not fix factory gap issues,
but to each their own. After I finish with the All Metal, I will use some
Z-Grip (easy sanding filler with hattonite) in areas with small undulations
that I believe will not block out during sanding. I then prime the exterior
surfaces of the car with a high-build polyester primer (I like Sherwin
Williams primer). This is essentially like spraying 30 mils of polyester
filler on the entire surface of the car. I block the living daylights out of
the car, and hope I don't need a second application. I will then use Metal
Glaze (glazing putty) on any small areas as necessary and then seal and
paint.
I hope this is helpful for those trying to navigate the world of fillers.
This is just my experience, I am sure others will chime in.
Good Luck,
Mike
1974 Alfa Spider Daily Driver
1965 Jaguar E-Type
1977 Ferrari 308 GTB
1965 Plymouth Sport Fury with a 426 wedge
Last edited by Vantaaj : 12-19-2005 at 05:21 PM.
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