Mahoney wrote: The 13-place VIN followed what once was called "the "rivet label law" and followed the 10-place ID (so well documented by Mopar fans online) http://tinyurl.com/8yw6e and followed the first national VIN --- way back in 1954 (although GM was using 12 places by 1960); it grew to 17 places in 1981 and was in the "Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966" that is for sale at http://tinyurl.com/b77qa --------------------------------- I'm confident that from memory and by comparing various serial numbers prior to 1966, I've pieced together the requirements. I just wasn't ready to go from memory alone! There was no "national VIN" required prior to the 1966 10-13 character mandate. AMC only used 5-8 place serial numbers prior to 1966 (minimum was a latter code for model/engine and a four digit consecutive serial number, max was a two letter code with the first letter model/engine, second letter plant or knock-down export indicator, then 4-6 digit number). There may have been a law requiring that the engine size/type be listed prior to 66, but that would have been all. The other information was extraneous and depended on the manufacturer. I'm sure manufacturer input was used to create the 13 and 17 character VINs, along with insurance companies and law enforcement agencies. Chevy was using a 13 character VIN in 1965 with all the required info. I have found a few Ford sites that state 11 characters through 1980, so the 13 character VIN wasn't mandated. From what I recall reading certain information was required along with a six digit consecutive number, and the entire VIN had to be unique. PLACEMENT of the numbers (except the consecutive number as the last six) was left totally to the manufacturer. Year, engine type (and/or size), car line, and body type had to be indicated. Interestingly, there wasn't a code required for manufacturer. That makes sense -- you'd presumably know if the car was an AMC, Ford, etc. by badging and/or other markings if nothing else. Assembly plant may not have been a requirement, but everyone had a plant listed in 66-80 VINs in one way or another (AMC got creative and used the starting consecutive number to indicate plant). That left two optional discretionary positions. So the minimum would have been 10 characters, but I'm not positive there was a 13 character limit. Placement of the VIN itself was left up to the manufacturer until January 1968 or 69 (I'll have to check my notes!), when the law stated that the VIN had to be visible through the windshield. This was to make it easy for law enforcement and insurance companies to check cars without disturbing the owner or damaging the vehicle. Prevents repossessing the wrong vehicle and such... ;> MSgt Frank Swygert 436 CES/CECM (MilCon) 302-677-6436, Cell 302-363-0530