Re: [AMC-list] Met a guy very interested in my '65 (OHC six)

[Frank Swygert <farna@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Jack, my comments are interspersed with a few points you made...

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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 17:27:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dale<mercendarian@xxxxxxxxx>

A driver needs: the Willys head(OHC), AMC got by buying Jeep and then, instead of developing it, abandoned it.? IKA-Renault-Argentina sold cars with it on AMC 232 blocks until the mid-?'80s, even racing them, in the IKA "Torino".

Frank:
WRONG. The IKA Torino engine is totally unique, it shares NO parts with the AMC six. Thebore is 3.334" (3-11/32"), stroke 4.375  (4-3/8"). The 199/232/258 all have a common 3.75" bore (3-3/4"), stroke varies. There has been speculation that it was based on the old Continental (Kaiser owned Continental engines in the late 50s/early 60s) 226 flat-head block, but I haven't looked at the 226 specs.
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Jack:
Even now, most with a AMC-era CJ-5/7 or wagoneer/J-series truck, won't change the engine, but might put an alloy DOHC-headed, cross-flow HEAD on their overweight (500lbs!), anemic AMC 3.4-3.8-4.2-4.0 flat-/OHV?sixes (although the 4.0 Hi-output was a VAST improvement @ 188hp).? There MUST be over a million AMC-era vehicles of the types I've mentioned, so that means perhaps 250,000 Alloy?DOHC heads could be sold, and if not that, at least Tens of thousands could be sold.??I think even an alloy-block AMC 6/later-6 would sell to renovators and Jeepers, alike.? Believe me, "cast-it", and they will buy.


Frank:
This has been proven wrong. Patriot cast an aluminum head a few years back. HESCO still sells one, I think it's the same head. Not sure if Patriot casts them for HESCO, HESCO bought the molds, or maybe HESCO developed it themselves (I doubt that -- and the HESCO and Patriot heads both appeared at teh same time...).  It's not cross-flow or OHC, just a good aluminum head. $1995 gives you a complete head with valves and springs. Too expensive for anything but all-out racing if you ask me.
http://www.hesco.us/shop.asp?action=details&inventoryID=44115&catId

What you fail to understand about the dynamics of an AMC six is that all-out HP isn't it's forte. It doesn't build more torque than a similar size V-8 either. What it does is develop peak torque very quickly and has a relatively flat torque curve right up until it quits producing power. That's about 1000-4000 rpm on a stock engine. THAT is why it worked so well in Jeeps, and when driven to take advantage of the quick torque output it works well in a car. People used to do that, but everyone is so used to high revving fours and V engines that they just no longer know how. A fellow was road racing a Spirit and was revving the heck out of it. I finally convinced him to get a five speed (for the lower first gear, not worried about the high fifth!) and STOP revving it past 4500 rpm or so. Use the trans to keep the engine around 4K and gear down out of the curves. He started finishing in the upper half of the pack and even winning on occasion! He had been driving it like he used to
 drive his Austin-Healey. After switching to the five speed and not revving the engine so much he could out pull anything coming out of the corners. They would beat him on the straights, but not coming out of the curves.
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Jack:
I think the motorcycle/-car clubs in England are "better" than many of our clubs, because English clubs have "spares(parts)-schemes" where garage factories make parts with better metallurgy than the originals... Get dozens of club members together, and the dues can finance spares so one's pride and joy can be motored into the Next century, by whomever its left to.

Frank:
We do that now. In fact, at least three of the vendors (Kennedy American, Galvin's Rambler Parts, and.... well, I know there is another involved!!) cooperate on getting parts reproduced. There are several enthusiasts who still have one or two parts made (or have had them made) when they needed something that was unavailable for themselves. You have to ask around the clubs and forums for a while to find some of those, but some guy makes trunnion cushions and another was (is?) making early to mid 60s convertible top handles.
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Jack:
 Lastly, remember the Stutz, Pierce-Arrow,?Duesenberg, and Marmon?? Those are cars all remembered cheifly for their engines and drivability, because custom-bodies could be fitted to a Model-A Ford.

Frank:
I disagree. Those cars were "status symbol" cars, not mass produced transportation. THAT is why they are remembered -- everybody wished they made enough to own one! Yes, a Deusie would top 100 mph, quite a feat in the late 20s, but I wouldn't have wanted to take a fast curve with it or try to haul it down quickly from that speed. There were very few public roads that you'd even dare drive that fast on, and not for long!

Hmm... I don't disagree that they were known for their well engineered engines, but talk to someone who has owned one and driven it. They were technological marvels of their day, but they also needed a lot of maintenance. Most people who owned one of those had a driver and/or mechanic paid to maintain it. NOTHING in the 20's and 30's was known for its "drivability". Maybe for the day, but can't even compare one to a 1958 Rambler American with a flat-head six as far as drivability and reliability. That American won't quite do 100, but would outperform a Duesie or any of the others mentioned in just about every other way.

There were some custom bodies for Model As and Ts, but not of the caliber fitted to the prestige makes.

--
Frank Swygert
Editor - American Motors Cars Magazine
www.amc-mag.com


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