[Amc-list] Fwd: Davis Martin's Oil Pump Kit (was: 401 Oil Mods from 03-15-2008)

[Greg Taylor <amundaza@xxxxxxxxx>]

Jock/all,
  Here is Davis' original post on the oil pump gear material subject matter.
   
  Sincerely,
  Greg Taylor :)  <><
   
  

Davis Martin <martin-davis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Davis Martin <martin-davis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans." <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] 401 Oil Mods

Nick,
You make some good points. I have never twisted an amc past 7500 RPMS. I have run a car on the street quite a bit but never road racing. Yes, most of my experience is 1320 feet at a time
As for what we do to make our engines last:
There are 2 issues. 
1... is not enough oil in the system for prolonged hi rpm usage( 5000 rpms) Nor enough for short 6500 RPM floggings.(1320') 
2... is poor oil pressure in a warm engine.
The fix for problem:
# 1 is a deeper oil pan. It can be home made as our first one, or now we use the $334.00 Milodon deep pan with deep sump.

OK, on to poor oil pressure. 
The problem with the stock setup is there is a Powdered Iron gear living in an aluminum housing. The 2 have very different expansion coefficient's. So when you set your nice tight pump clearances on the bench they do not hold up. When the engine heats to operating temp, the gear does not expand as much as the housing, and you have a looser pump then optimum. This is why most see warm engine pressures in 18 PSI or lower. Ok for a stock engine so says amc and it must work cause they go 150K miles or better, but not so great for running 6000 RPMS or more. 
The fix.
Bill figured this out 20 years ago when we were loosing bearings. He found an alloy with the same expansion coefficient as the timing cover. We have gears made from this alloy which is harder on the RC scale then the factory gears. Once we swapped to this set up our amc oil problems were no longer. For our drag engines and my hot street motors we have a race kit where the gears are a tad longer to move more oil and an adjustment to dial in oil pressure. 
For more reassurance in a stock motor, we have a stock kit with the alloy gears.
We have had many repeat customers from as far back as 14 years ago when Bill had sold some kits and wrote an article in AMXterminator, a monthly amc club publication out of fla. (before the internet).
Fast forward to 4 years ago I wanted to build a street strip car and needed a set of gears. Bill only had one kit left. So I set out to have them made. Took some (lots) for foot work and I got it done. Started selling them on the net Through various places and they went like hotcakes. The past year or so I have slowed down as I am having family issues and needed to focus on that so I have not been pushing them or putting kits together. I have sold 3 kits in the last week and have many more to put together now that things are getting back on track for me.
I sell race kits for 220.00 and street kits for 110.00 

Ok now I feel I have rambled on long enough. Thanks for reading. I agree, we need more amcers that think outside the box and more willing to put a buck up and make parts to help our hobbyist improve our favorite Marque
Davis Martin 
Amc Team Racing 
860-997-2732 cell 
4-9pm EST and on weekends. 

Nick ALFANO <71amx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Davis,

I am not offended and hopefully no one else is. I am also not brain washed and have been doing this at least as long as you if not longer. I think other opinions and experience is typically a good thing. I think using words like never is very short sighted and an engine built for a 1/4 mile at a time is not the same as what a lot of the guys on the list build. They also see different conditions that are not always as hard on an engine as one that is driven hard on the street all the time as well as races. True, some of the mods below are not needed for most engines. I also agree with you that if everything is working properly, and I emphasize properly, most of these are needed. Some are ways to help the unforeseen or the day you got a little crazy showing off to your buddies. If you have different ways at doing the same thing, you should share it instead of just criticizing. I too speak from years of experience with AMCs. In fact over 25 years
(and longer if you count my earlier years with my dad) and I have not yet lost a bearing for any reason, oil or abuse on the street or at the track (knock on wood). I will probably blow up a motor now that I gave myself the hex. 

Drilling the oil hole up from the mains is something some of the biggest racers in our hobby did. The cam bearing oil slot is way too large for one. It is also on the loaded side of the bearing which it not optimal and can wipe the oil off the journal instead of allowing it to completely coat. Drilling it to the unloaded side and reducing the size is definitely a good thing. This is something GM has done for years (take a look at a Chevy cam journal oiling compared to an AMC). Everyone in the industry knows we have way to much oil going through the lifter galley. Spin your engine with a stock pan between 5500-7500 rpm without some mod here and see how long your bearing last and I don't mean a 1/4 mile at a time. You are most likely running a 7-9 quart pan which would say, ok it is fine to have a ton of oil in the upper half of my engine because I have plenty in the pan to ensure I never starve the mains. A lot of guys don't want to run a deep pan
or shell out the $400-600 one costs. You probably have other oil mods that are not even covered here.

Before we make strong statements, let other know what you are doing so they understand why you think they are unnecessary. It is kind of like the guy who says, I run Stock class and turn a 10 sec 1/4 mile with a stock engine. Stock my butt. No AMC engine was ever put together the way these engines are that run in that class. They don't tell you they have $15,000-25,000 in their "stock" engine and more time than you can imagine.

Nick,

Alfano Performance
4849-76 st.
Kenosha, WI. 53142
262-308-1302
262-942-8271 after 6pm central and weekends 


Nick ALFANO <71amx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Rick,

It really depends on how you intend to use the engine. There are some standard things you can do that a lot of guys do when they build an AMC. If this is a lite duty, easy driving engine, you can get away without doing them although they are added insurance that are all done for a specific reasons which typically is to increase the longevity of your engine whether it be for racing or street use.
Answer:
(This is very true. For a stock engine, it needs no modifications, just a good blueprint job on assembly. )


The first is the internal oil line. This goes from the front lifter oiling junction to the area between numbers 6 & 8 lifters and diverts some of the oil back down to the main bearing. Important if you are running over 5500 rpm on a somewhat regular basis. 
Answer:
(This is one of the most bogus modifications that has been perpetuated over the years. Let the flaming begin All this is doing is taking oil supply from the front of the engine and moving it to the back. The front doesn't need that oil? It is a poor band aid for the real issue. poor oil pressure and poor oiling to the back of the engine. In 30 years of racing engines we have never used this modification and it is most unnecessary.)


The next would be reducing the oil hole diameter in the cam bearings. Drill the hole opposite to the stock hole and then turn the bearing 180 degrees. There is an old trick that re-drills the oil supply through the three middle main bearing to the unloaded side of the cam bearings. Then you install a pipe plug oil restricter in the oil galley plug. This way is a lot more involved (but a better design) than drilling the bearings. 
Answer: ( Again unnecessary ) 


Third would be a larger pan with external pick up. We custom make a pan with trap doors and a shelf to keep the oil from going all over the place in the pan when accelerating, stopping and turning. There are also other after market pans out there. Using a 12 AN line, we drill and tap the front oil hole in the block to get a direct feed to the oil pump from this external line. You could also purchase the Milodon oil pump adapter for the oil supply.
Answer: 
( I agree on the larger pan with more oil capacity, this should be one of the first modifications.. The extra lines are cool to look at, but again not necessary)

Another mod is the external cam/distributor oiler. We install a 1/8 line from the oil sending unit block over and into the timing cover that spray fresh oil on the area where the two gears meet. 
Answer:
( Again unnecessary. This has no purpose. If the parts are manufactured, and assembled correctly There is no value to this line)

When building a timing cover, I machine out all of the oil passages to remove an flash and radius any bends as much as possible to help with flow. Also, make sure you use a newer style 45 degree filter housing and not the 90 degree one. Also a good idea to purchase the one without the oil by-pass in it.
Answer:
( Great idea, definitly a must do.)


I can supply you with all these parts or you can have you engine builder purchase them for you. Most of the stuff is readily available if you know what you are looking for. My kits come with the parts and instructions with illustrations.
There is alot of good info out there and alot of bogus info out there. It is up to you the reader to decipher what is what. 

(I get flamed all the time by folks that have been brain washed in there ways of the amc oil system but I only speak from direct experience and engineering facts.
in the 21 years I have been running amc's with my buddy William Hallock my technical engineer we have NEVER worn a bearing out due to poor oiling.
Ask me why.
Davis Martin Amc Team Racing
860-997-2732 cell ) 
Sorry if I offended some as I am sure this does.
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