Re: [Amc-list] Found out why my '65 American was parked! (brake lines)

[Matt Haas <mhaas@xxxxxxx>]

Frank,

It's not a minor difference. I know for a fact that the lines are 
different enough that you can't use the lines for a Bendix master on a 
Wagner one. The point of the pictures was to point out the differences 
in the port locations between the two, not the brake lines (like I said, 
the lines in the second picture were not stock).

Matt

Frank Swygert wrote:
> I knew the fitting sizes were different. Looks like AMC used a different 
> location for the T in the line to the right front wheel also. There's 
> not much difference between the locations of the lines though, I don't 
> think enough to prevent interchanging the MCs due to line length, though 
> some minor bending would be required. Wagner may have the front and rear 
> outlets switched (rear outlet feeds rear brakes instead of front like 
> Bendix does... at least I seem to recall the drum brake MC is the same 
> as disc in that respect), but switching the lines would solve that. I 
> think we're just in a technicality discussion right now. If it's a 
> driver and new lines are needed to fit under the car with minimal work, 
> it should be acceptable to get the SC/Rambler kit and make the minor 
> mods to fit it to whichever brake setup the car has. The worse case is 
> the lines between the junction block and MC would need to be changed out 
> with longer ones to reach the MC. As Tom added, adapters can be used to 
> solve the MC connection size issue. The exact location of the T in the 
> line doesn't matter since all front lines will be replaced. If, however, 
> you're restoring a car and/or want the brake lines to be as factory 
> original, it will make a noticeable difference. I'm reasonably sure most 
> judges at AMC shows wouldn't know the difference as long as the lines 
> were neat and looked somewhat original. Of course adapters on the MC 
> would be a dead giveaway. ---------------- Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 
> 20:43:54 -0500 From: Matt Haas <mhaas@xxxxxxx> No, it does matter and 
> the lines Bendix lines don't fit the Wagner master cylinder. The outlets 
> are in difference places and there is about 2" of different between the 
> Wagner and Bendix master cylinder. This is called out in the parts book. 
> These brake lines on six cylinder cars without power brakes are the 
> same: * Rear axle lines * Valve to axle * Valve to right front wheel * T 
> fitting to valve (this line has a hump in it on Bendix master cylinder 
> cars) * T fitting to left front wheel What's different are: * T fitting 
> to front master cylinder port * Rear master cylinder port to valve 
> Here's a Wagner master cylinder: 
> http://www.mattsoldcars.com/1967american/images/engine_stuff/clean_up/driver_side.jpg 
> Here's a Bendix master cylinder: 
> http://www.mattsoldcars.com/buymyrebel/images/driver_toeboard.jpg Not 
> the best comparison (especially since the second picture has lines I 
> made up myself) but you can see there are size differences. Matt Frank 
> Swygert wrote:
> 
>>> It wouldn't matter who made the master cylinder as long as it had the same bore and stroke. Good thing the wheel cylinders were the same size on Bendix and Wagner brakes for the American! Bendix used to use a large flare nut with a small line to prevent mixing the front and rear brake lines on the master cylinder in the early 60s. I guess by 67 they had discontinued that practice since you mention the lines fit Bendix or Wagner MCs. 
>>>
>>> --------------
>>> Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 21:35:56 -0500
>>> From: Matt Haas <mhaas@xxxxxxx>
>>>
>>> Americans used both Wagner and Bendix master cylinders in 1967. They 
>>> also used Wagner and Bendix brake systems (which doesn't impact the 
>>> brake lines) but which master was used with which brake type doesn't 
>>> seem to be connected.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> Frank Swygert wrote:
>>>
>>   
>>>>>>> You are absolutely correct! I totally forgot about both issues, which 
>>>>>>> would need to be addressed if ordering lines. In 65 199 and 195.6 
>>>>>>> powered cars used Bendix, only the (somewhat rare) 232 powered cars used 
>>>>>>> Wagners (or at least that's what the TSM says -- we all know there were 
>>>>>>> exceptions!). I didn't think about the power brake issue either, but 
>>>>>>> those aren't exactly common on Americans either, and I don't think they 
>>>>>>> were available on the SC/Rambler (would just require changing the two 
>>>>>>> feed lines between junction block and MC though). All 69 Ramblers 
>>>>>>> (American/Rogue was just called "Rambler" in 69) used Bendix brakes, so 
>>>>>>> that info will help! The only 69 to use Wagners was the (AMC) Rebel six 
>>>>>>> cylinder sedan and hardtop built in Kenosha (Canadian models used 
>>>>>>> Bendix)
>>>>       
> 

-- 
mhaas@xxxxxxx
Cincinnati, OH
http://www.mattsoldcars.com
1967 Rambler American wagon
1968 Rambler American sedan
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