Re: [Amc-list] Re; EFI install on [anything modest] a bit of a Rant.

[Wrambler242@xxxxxxxxxxx]

John,
   It seems to me that you are above the curve as far as most people go for tuning and fooling with carbs, timing etc;
It also seems to me that you have been unhappy with your system and it's results.

  I have none of these regrets or problems.
I used a "junkyard" system. I have been nothing but happy with it.
  No emmisions here.

Tuneability can be had.

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
> Knowing full well that at least 4 people on this list run a form of fuel
> injection on the AMC I-6 it would seem some how to me that there would
> be more specific information available as to how to accomplish it. This
> includes my self. At least 3 of the people run a 4.0 with the factory
> fuel injection. 
> Mine is a conversion on a 258 and I assume others out there have some
> form of a throttle body or mpfi system. 
> It seems to be implied that you wander around a junk yard and grab an
> assorted hand full of parts and with the help of a soldering iron and a
> couple of alligator clips you can retrofit almost anything anywhere. 
> While there may be an element of truth some where, I just do not think
> it is that easy or frankly worth the cost. 
> I can with some degree of luck sit here and look up just about any fuel
> injection system on an American car that has been used since the first
> one on the Cadillac Seville. ( I am referring to electronic only
> although I can also look up early mechanical units too). 
> I am not saying as a technical curiosity or an exercise in capability it
> should not be done or even thought about. After all with a budget and
> some curiosity and the need for the end result to be smog legal it can
> be done. 
> But to grab a throttle body off some form of a 2.8 or other GM car with
> no clue as to what else you need to have along with the throttle body
> and even less of a clue as to what sensors are required and where you
> put them on an AMC I-6 the planning effort is a bit more than vague. 
> I looked up the 2.8 Chevy TB and found for one thing, there were at
> least 5 different engine controllers called out for the S10 in 1984 on
> the page of information I was on. 
> I frankly have no idea how many more different engine controllers were
> also called out for other applications, but as the smog requirements
> varied all over the map in 1984 I would be willing to bet that the same
> package in a car had different controllers again. 
> I dunno, but if some one is interested I can look. I can also get the
> fan out required to satisfy the engine controller. And they very around
> a bit too. 
> That of course does not answer the question as to whether any of the
> sensors would fit any place at all on an AMC I-6 application. 
>  
> Mark, 
> as close as I can tell there is no requirement for the input from an oil
> pressure sender for the engine controller for the Renix Jeep unit. For
> the Chrysler mpfi unit there is non either. 
> The Chrysler Unit is a speed density system and because of that it less
> flexible then the older Renix unit on it?s applications. However if
> something out there uses an air flow sensor it has quite a bit of built
> in flexibility. Staying with in the operating parameters of a Speed
> density system is not all that hard and as far as Jeep units go I
> understand that it is basically more reliable. There is also no knock
> detector working with it. Thus you want to make sure you follow the
> directions with the use of this unit. The recommendation is high test
> gasoline. And at a dime more per gallon at $4.00 per gallon, it is
> hardly an imposition. ?Specially since I built my engine to run on 91
> Octane. 
> However if there is a capability of changing any of the operating
> parameters on either unit I am not aware of it, thus getting it to work
> with a different set of parameters  is not feasible.  As far as I am
> concerned my unit could use a more aggressive advance curve and greater
> advance. However there is no way to 
> 1 Measure it. 
> 2 Change it. 
> My fuel injection is an engine management system too. It also runs the
> ignition. I would think that the older less sophisticated systems would
> retrofit in some way or anther and just run the carburetor and ignore
> the ignition. Some of the older units might even trigger off of the
> distributor. It would take a bit of looking to figure it out.
>  
> Cost, 
> These things are not cheap to do. I have yet to run across anyone who
> has a working system under 2 Grand, with the possible exception of some
> one who bought a donor vehicle and then stripped it for parts, which is
> probably just about the cheapest and most reliable method that I can
> come up with to obtain the parts.  
> Horror stories accompany other applications where parts were attempted
> to be found at pick a parts. Incompatible parts are the biggest
> problems, and then making parts try to fit with machining operations is
> not cheap either unless you have your own fully equipped machine shop.
> Numbers I have seen spent to accomplish this ?replacement for a BBD?
> Carburetor have been aprox. $2500 to $3500 on the whole. 
>  
> Detroit did not design Fuel Injection because they had a change of heart
> in the design departments, Performance increases were not necessarily
> prime criteria nor was fuel economy, if there was any at all. 
>  
> Smog requirements drove the design. The feds wanted a 50,000 mile smog
> engine and one way it could be done was to fuel inject it which requires
> no wrench turning to make it run. Spark plugs and air filters were
> designed to last 50,000 miles. Detroit made Washington Happy. The buying
> public could suck eggs or by a Bimmer or a Toyota. 
>  
> The only problem I have had with the BBD carburetor was advanced neglect
> and gross miss-adjustments. I can guarantee you a rebuild kit and an
> afternoon in the garage mine will run well and cost 3-4 x 10 to the 3rd
> less than my fuel injection kit did. Not worth it to change it. I wanted
> more carburetor when I was done. With the cfm rating of the BBD at 195
> cfm at 3,000 rpm the engine was beginning to fall on it?s face. Smog
> legal was the biggest requirement for me. With fuel injection I got it.
> Now the engine will run out to 5500 with out the slightest provocation
> and still pass smog. 
> However I fought that damned fuel injection for 2 years before I was
> able to determine the MMAP sensor was either defective or out of
> calibration from the get go. Oh yeh, it would pass the computer self
> check! Go figure. 
>  
> I still am fighting the fuel injection. I have eaten up 4 fuel pumps so
> far. At $100.00 a pop that is a bit pricey. Recently I discovered why,
> using the fuel pick up built into the car when the tank was about ¼ full
> and you stepped on the gas, or went up a 7% grade the gasoline would
> slosh to the back away from the pick up and the pump would run dry. It
> did not take too many times to kiss off the pump. 
> Summit has a modification that you can do to your gasoline tank to pick
> up from the bottom of the tank. Maybe I will make that change this year,
> maybe not. But in the mean time I keep the tank no less than half full. 
>  
> Some of these problems are subtle and take a while to find them. Having
> a working knowledge of one unit does not make you an expert on all fuel
> injections, just a little bit smarter. 
>  
> The one on my Eagle Summit Wagon had an EGR sensor in it. If the EGR
> tube plugged the sensor went into an out of tolerance condition and
> flagged an error code. 
> Boy was that fun to find and ferret out. When I pulled the assembly off
> of a junkyard Mitsubishi engine, I felt good, until I got it home and
> this one did not have an EGR sensor. Yuh, I figured it out eventually
> and fixed it. Yes I do my own diagnostic and repair work for the most
> part. But I will buy a service manual for the car that I have
> to tell me what to look for and where to find it. However even with that
> I have hit one impossible to fix situation with the Dodge Caravan I used
> to own. It quit one day. 
> After 3 weeks of working on it, it still wasn?t running. I sold it to a
> mechanic who could fix anything. That was a year ago, it still isn?t
> running. I don?t know why and I don?t care. It is not my problem any
> longer. 
>  
> Yes fuel injection systems are reliable, far more so than anything in
> the past. But remember, I bought my 10 year old 100,000 mile Town and
> Country at about what the same price would be to by a New Donohue
> Javelin in 1970. Something should be more reliable even if I can not
> keep a transmission in the thing. 
>  
> If some one wants to package information on getting something cobbed
> together that just might get the job done. I have data I am willing to
> share. Just ask. But for me, the next I-6 I build will have a Carter AFB
> on it or maybe an AVS and I think I know how to make it smog legal too. 
> Not end of Rant, but done anyway. 
> John. 
>  
>  
>  
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