AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23
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- Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:00:02 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: AMC six ignition timing -- got it! (Tom Jennings)
2. Re: Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It! (Tom Jennings)
3. Re: interesting link (Tom Jennings)
4. fan shroud for sale (Jay)
5. running 232 for sale $50 (Eddie Stakes)
6. throttle body fuel injection - cheap - (Brien Tourville)
7. AMC v8 Valve Covers (Brien Tourville)
8. Re: More AMC INk (Jeff & Caroline)
9. AMC INK (namdra@xxxxxxxx)
10. FW: Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It! (John Elle)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:33:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
To: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612091027250.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Mark Price wrote:
> I think the T-stat is supposed to open at 195*. full opening
> is quick it almost flips open IIRC.
Well mine is definitely not switching close to open at 195!
I think it's beginning to open slightly at 170 (or whatever)
and fully open at 195. I guess I will go RTFM. With a big fat
new 3-row radiator maybe even a trickle of cool water may keep
it at 170. If so, not much I can do about it, and switchin to
a 180 thermo would lower it even more!
> 180* except for the fact that the lower operating temp may kill
> your residual ping. You want to keep the engine temp up as close
> to the 190+ range for good economy. But since your carbed and
> it's an easy swap and you have one, I'd probably throw it in and
> see what happens.
With the current setup, it only pings after idling in traffic
etc so the temp rises to the thermostat number and I then get
on it. Eh.
Last night I fiddled with the electric fan thermostatic switch.
I never really know how to set those! I had it coming on at
200 or so (eg. it never comes on on the freeway, only in traffic)
but I adjusted it down to 185 using my infrared thermometer
and it cycled on/off just fine, so maybe that will solve
the problem by itself.
> fine. NO ping at all, I had it in to keep engine temps down as
> my shortblock is a warranty pull for piston noise when hot,
> so I thought I'd keep it cooler and see what happened. I've
> never heard said piston noise and enjoy my "free" 4.0L greatly!
Wow, that's weird. Some piston scuffing a wall when hot?
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:08:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It!
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612091035230.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, John Elle wrote:
> Maximum Degrees Advance @ 2000 RPM w/Vacuum hoses connected 33 degrees
> =/- 4
> Centrifugal Advance Engine RPM and Degrees, on the car. 232 I-6
> 900rpm 4-6 Degrees
> 2100 rpm 16-20 degrees
> Vacuum Advance Engine Degrees
> 232 I-6 Degrees Max Advance 22
Yup, and I figured out where these numbers come from....
In the last month I learned a lot about ignition timing!
First there's things about vacuum advance that I now know are
technically verifyable facts, and reasons why vaccum advance
doesn't matter at all for performance tuning:
One: The only timing setting that matters when the engine
is under load, or WOT, is static + centrifugal. Vacuum is
NEVER taken into account at this step. The reason? All vacuum
advance units give ZERO advance when there is no vacuum! Wide
open throttle == zero, or very low, manifold vacuum.
Two: Ported vs. manifold vacuum. Ported distributor vacuum
is a smog reducing modification only; it makes the engine
run worse, not better. Ported vacuum lowers NOx at idle,
by lowering combustion temperature by ruining spark timing!
Fuel:air burns late, so it ends up in the exhaust; it makes
your engine run hot at idle. If your car idles hot, switch
to manifold vacuum, it will run cooler.
Three: High load/WOT means the fuel:air mixture is richest;
you want to make a lot of power. This is when combustion
is most sensitive to ignition timing: too early PINGs,
too late BACKFIREs. Since WOT means no vacuum, there is no
vacuum advance, so only static + centrifugal matters. Pull
the hose while tuning!
And what vacuum advance really is doing:
Four: lean mixtures (highway cruising), rarefied mixtures
(high manifold vacuum means rarefied air:fuel), dry mixtures
(decelleration) need LOTS of advance, because they burn
poorly and the flame-front advances slowly. THIS IS ALL THAT
VACUUM ADVANCE IS FOR. Cruising at 50mph flat and level at
sealevel, say 2000 rpm, vacuum is relatively high. So you
might have 10 static + 20 centrifugal + 15 vacuum advance
= 45 total degrees advance. This is needed because the
thin lean mixture takes longer to burn than a rich one
at wide-open-throttle.
Those things above are technically verifyable and are true for
all gasoline 4-stroke motors. Only the numbers vary.
Though he writes only about Brand-C motors, Lars Grimsrud has
some EXCELLENT writeups on ignition timing.
> Now the way I read this it seems to say that there is a possibility of a
> maximum of 42 degrees advance available at 2100+rpm with 16 to 17 inches
> of mercury at the vacuum can of the distributor.
Yup!
> And of course as you
> start pulling a load the vacuum advance will retard the spark at any
> given rpm depending on the amount of load which translates into reduced
> vacuum until you get down to zero at which point the only advance would
> be mechanical and at 2100 rpm that would be 16 -20 degrees.
Yup! And this case (no vacuum) is where performance tuning
can be done. The factories were very conservative with these
numbers to save themselves a lot of work and ruined engines,
and gas was 35 - 75 cents/gallon...
> Depending on the year of the car or the distributor, the recommended
> vacuum source could be either ported vacuum or manifold vacuum, and it
I have some TSMs, I should go look, but I bet t wasn't until
late 1960's/early 70's they started the "ported" business.
> So the question becomes, with Toms full mechanical advance, what is his
> set up giving at 2100 rpm vs the factory spec for that year and engine
> combination and what happens when the load becomes high enough to
> require later or retarded timing and a rpm based advance can't supply
> it?
I will today make a chart of centrifugal advance vs. RPM.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:11:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] interesting link
Cc: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612091110280.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Eddie Stakes wrote:
> I got this from a website wishing to trade links with my site. Check out the
> tow truck and the car being towed!
> http://www.junkmycar.com/
I wonder how much checking they do... my neighbor keeps taking
my favorite parkin spot!!!! That'll fix em!
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 14:26:07 -0500
From: "Jay" <jciampi@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] fan shroud for sale
To: "AMC LIST" <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <002101c71bc7$ebb94d20$e9c41ecf@Ciampi>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi y'all, I have a used fan shroud for a 66 American with a 232 engine. I
ended up with 2 or them and only needed one, so if anyone would like to
contact me about it before it goes on Ebay today or tomorrow, please do.
Jay in So. Central FL.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:39:04 -0600
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] running 232 for sale $50
To: <baadassGremlins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: amysmygirl2003@xxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <00e901c71bc8$60ba74f0$abf1b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I have a 1971 232 with the b/w automatic behind it. Ran great when pulled
newer Motorola alt. The motor only has 50,000 miles on it and is complete
except for the inspection cover. $50 Obo. If you are interested contact me
at amysmygirl2003@xxxxxxxxx The motor is located in Ashtabula ohio zip code
44004 I need the room!
=================================
anyone needing a good engine to get their car on the road give them a shout
above thanks,
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.planethoustonamx.com
Email is currently HEAVY
5-12 day reply times, call if important
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:24:56 -0500
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] throttle body fuel injection - cheap -
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <457AD548.27323.31B0D86@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
http://tinyurl.com/sazam
=Bt=
milnersXcoupe
"The Heretic"
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 17:23:57 -0500
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC v8 Valve Covers
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <457AF12D.29062.38803DA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Does - Did anyone ever make V8 valve covers
just like the stockers only out of Aluminium ?
I was looking at one set that were thicker than
the cyl. head castings .........
=Bt=
milnersXcoupe
"The Heretic"
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:23:52 -0500
From: "Jeff & Caroline" <jbennett1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] More AMC INk
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <002001c71c02$3c497d70$e30e2241@caroline4dv1dm>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original
If you look in the back of that issue under completed auctions, it has a 69
390 4 speed sold for 45,000
I got back from the books stores in Vegas with the latest copy of Hemmings
Muscle Machines which has an 68 to 70 AMX buyers guide article. I don't go
along with there pricing however. Pricing has pretty much gone past the
$25,000 for a recently redone car. LRDaum
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:14:09 -0600
From: namdra@xxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC INK
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061209.211409.-16506495.0.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The Dec. 1, 2006 issue of Drag News does a 1-page story on the race
portion of the '06 AMC NATIONALS sponsored by NAMDRA. They also did an
article on the 12th. Annual Power Wheelstanding Championships at Byron
Dragway and had a pic & blurb of Brian Ambrosini's Gremlin. Brian, past
winner of this championship with his Gremlin, got a 3rd. place this year.
The Jan. 2007 issue of Cars & Parts, in an article on the 2006 Woodward
Dream Cruise, had a picture & blurb of Mickey Ziomkowski's 70 Rebel
Machine.
Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974, NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:12:11 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] FW: Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It!
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000201c71c22$256cedb0$b8dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Tom and all
Snip
And of course as you start pulling a load the vacuum advance will retard
the spark at any given rpm depending on the amount of load which
translates into reduced vacuum until you get down to zero at which point
the only advance would
be mechanical and at 2100 rpm that would be 16 -20 degrees.
Yup! And this case (no vacuum) is where performance tuning can be done.
The factories were very conservative with these
numbers to save themselves a lot of work and ruined engines, and gas was
35 - 75 cents/gallon...
Snip
Except in those cases which do exist when at extremely high rpm's
running the timing a bit later improves performance, however these
circumstances do not reflect street applications and are unusual in
themselves.
However performance tuning is a singular criterion. On the street you do
a lot of partial throttle acceleration and the timing needs are
different than at wide open throttle for optimum efficiency. For the
most part you can use more advance at a given rpm in order to optimize
fuel economy for those conditions. Where as wide open throttle at the
same rpm would require later timing.
For example the timing needs at a flat and level highway to maintain
say, 60 mph can be done with quite a bit of advance. This will give you
the best fuel economy too. However hit a 6% grade or any grade you will
have to increase pressure on the throttle to maintain 60 mph thus
changing the fuel ratio. As changing the fuel ratio will also change the
burn rate, the timing will have to be retarded a bit in order to not
ping. This scenario could repeat with an increasingly large hill until
you are now wide open throttle just to maintain 60 mph and all of this
time the timing would want to run progressively later in order to
eliminate pinging and associated piston damage. Keeping the timing at a
fixed number that would in and of itself eliminate pinging would cause
fuel economy to be less than optimized.
In the early motoring days when fuel was even cheaper, say 11 cents a
gallon the average automotive engine had a manual spark advance operator
control. Many times as a part of the steering wheel. There was no
automatic control, vacuum, centrifugal or otherwise.
Even early tractors in the very early teens had a water injection option
available to minimize pinging and improve power. It used radiator water
to do so. Remember these were the days when compression was a heady 3:1
on a good day and the same engine could run gasoline, kerosene or
alcohol with about the same performance or reliability. It was not until
some where in the late 20's or early 30's that Eythel or high test
gasoline was developed to help support the "new" high compression
engines of about 6:1
Snip
> Depending on the year of the car or the distributor, the recommended
> vacuum source could be either ported vacuum or manifold vacuum, and it
I have some TSMs, I should go look, but I bet t wasn't until
late 1960's/early 70's they started the "ported" business.
Snip
According to my AMC TSM collection that appears to be 1970 although I
am sure other manufactures may have used different time frames for the
switch, or used ported vacuum right along for quite some time prior to
that.
I'm still interested how the curve comes out.
John.
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23
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