Send AMC-List mailing list submissions to amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to amc-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx You can reach the person managing the list at amc-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxx When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of AMC-List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM) 2. AMC six ignition timing -- got it! (Tom Jennings) 3. Re: I finally got it or whatever (JOE FULTON) 4. Re: I finally got it or whatever (Tom Jennings) 5. Re: Fuel Injecting the big dogs (Jim Blair) 6. Blue light special HELP (Mark Price) 7. Re: AMC six ignition timing -- got it! (Mark Price) 8. Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It! (John Elle) 9. Re: More AMC INk (Larry R. Daum) 10. Re: Blue light special HELP (Russell Neyhart) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:33:13 -0600 From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM" <Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs To: <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C976@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The GEAR is the same, but I'm not sure about the depth. It doesn't help a bit, but the lower body is the same as a late model Chevy I-6. To convert to HEI you just use an AMC V-8 gear on the Chevy I-6 dizzy. There you go, sacrifice a Chevy dizzy for a shaft bearing! ----------------- Date: Friday, December 8, 2006 01:18 PM From: Widiker, John D <john.widiker@xxxxxxx> Same depth and gear as the v-8????? -----Original Message----- " From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx> " " (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump), you could get one out of a '99-up 4.0 to do that. they have distributorless ign. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:38:22 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> Subject: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it! To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612081421460.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Must be my lucky day. I figured I'd be at this all winter. I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected -- and no pinging under load. I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today. I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical, by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did the trick. It begins to ping under heavy load when the coolant temp gets hot-normal, eg. curb idle right as the electric fans come on, around 200 degrees. Then it will ping. As soon as it cools down driving, doesn't ping. (My test strip is Route 2, Glendale Freeway north of Broadway etc, up to the foothills; 50 - 90 mph.) It runs up to 4000 rpm without misfiring/popping (which I think was retard, before). It's hard to keep a heavy load on the engine above 4000 as I'm going too fast for urban highways. (75mph in 2nd gear is about 4300.) Now I have to really figure out coolant temps. I have a Mr. Gasket 195 degree thermostat in there. I thought "195 degree" means it begins to open at 195. Or is it fully open at 195? I'm confused -- in cool air, flat and level, 60 mph, sealevel, the coolant temp settles to a steady 172F. If I let it idle, with the fan thermostat set to 200F, it cycles 195, 205, 195, 205, ... with the fan. I have a Mr. Gasket 180 degree, I may put that in, but I don't want the steady-state temp to drop to 160 or whatever! ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:29:20 -0800 (PST) From: JOE FULTON <piper_pa20@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I finally got it or whatever To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <20061208232920.91871.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Tom, Sorry for not quoting your subject correctly but I'm on digest mode. Didn't copy it correctly. any Tom said: Must be my lucky day. I figured I'd be at this all winter. I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected -- and no pinging under load. I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today. I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical, by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did the trick. It begins to ping under heavy load when the coolant temp gets hot-normal, eg. curb idle right as the electric fans come on, around 200 degrees. Then it will ping. As soon as it cools down driving, doesn't ping. (My test strip is Route 2, Glendale Freeway north of Broadway etc, up to the foothills; 50 - 90 mph.) It runs up to 4000 rpm without misfiring/popping (which I think was retard, before). It's hard to keep a heavy load on the engine above 4000 as I'm going too fast for urban highways. (75mph in 2nd gear is about 4300.) ---------------- I haven't had be Gremlin with 258 2bbl out on the road yet, but I'm thinking I will convert it to the GM HEI ignition. I have the distributor and Pertronix sells a kit for it with high performance module and more importantly with three sets of advance springs and adjustable vacuum advance. I'll keep you post and see how your advance numbers work in my 258 when it gets on the road, hopefully in a few weeks. Regards, Joe Fulton ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:07:12 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I finally got it or whatever To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612081704580.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, JOE FULTON wrote: > I haven't had be Gremlin with 258 2bbl out on the road > yet, but I'm thinking I will convert it to the GM HEI > ignition. I have the distributor and Pertronix sells > a kit for it with high performance module and more > importantly with three sets of advance springs and > adjustable vacuum advance. I'll keep you post and see > how your advance numbers work in my 258 when it gets > on the road, hopefully in a few weeks. I can't wait to hear about it -- I guess that's a better choice, if new HEI six cyl distribs are available. Duraspark with the TFI coil works as well supposedly, though the all-in-the-cap sure is attractive. I think I'll go look at (www) the Pertronix six HEI stuff and see what's available... ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:17:22 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <BAY114-F5CC08932DA1FC14517A1BACD20@xxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A: My thought with the 196 was to get extra intake plates made and weld bungs in them so the ful injectors pointed at the intake valves. A minor bit of porting to allow room for the spray to get around the air streaming in (like the Renix "notch") and use smaller Ford injectors (like 4.6L V8 ones) and use Jeep system to run it. (I have a complete harness from a '90 XJ 4.0L I parted that I was going to use in my '84 J10, but I have decided to go to HO system for ease of wiring and dialling in the LPG EFI system) From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM" <Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C6DF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hmmm... just use a 1V (2.5L four) computer setup from a GM, substitute the YF for the stock TB. The GM 2.5L TB flows more than a YF though. At least the butterfly is a lot bigger. Just based on the butterfly size the GM 2.5L TB flows more than a Carter WCD 2V carb. The GM TB is something like 2.25" in diameter IIRC. It's been a long time since I toyed with the idea of using one on an AMC engine. It would work well on a bored out 1V intake and give a little more power than a BBD 2V -- but the main gain would be driveability. A long six really needs injectors at each port. Someone (Jim?) mentioned figuring out how to inject a 196. The 1V TBI would work great, but the side of the intake "trough" could be directly drilled and tapped for injectors. If the computer wouldn't object only four would be needed since cylinders 2-3 and 4-5 have siamesed intake ports. I wonder if one could just connect two sets of wires to one injector (with diodes to prevent feedback)? Those two injectors would get a lot more use than the other pair, but shouldn't be a problem. With a batch fire system it should work, sequential would depend on how close the siamesed injector cylinders are in the firing order. Of course two injectors could be installed side by side. This would work for the L-head too. Now that would be something -- a port injected flat-head six!! There are Stromberg carb body based TBs out there now. One of the hot rod supply companies made them for two and three deuce setups on flat-head Ford V-8s. _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:41:51 -0800 From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: Strokers <strokers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "AMC-DelMarVA: yahoogroups.com" <AMC-DelMarVA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <5378457.1165635711935.JavaMail.root@web22> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I got a delemma of very minimal concern, but I can't decide what to do about it! I've got a nice Sony head unit in my American, blue flourescent lite display and backlighting of switches. I tried sime of the blue 194 bulbs in the factory gauges and they are so darkly tinted I can barely see the qauges, this is with the factory green shields pulled out. I'm now in the process of doing a custom install of 6 Autometer Sport comp gauges. I need to either get different blue tinted 194 bulbs, Buy the blue covers from Autometer for clear 194 bulbs or use LEDs. I know LEDS won't dim, I don't care I run dash lights at full. if I choose Leds, which ones? Where do I buy them? This may seem trivial, but it won't be easy for me to accomplish bulb changes after the final install, so I'd like to get this right! On the stupidity side! I ended with two water temp gauges! :] DUH, got wrapped up in the whole eBay shopping experience and bought two of them! Anyone need a nice shiney new one???? 2 1/8" version! Mark Price markprice242ATadelphia.net Morgantown, WV ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:54:14 -0800 From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it! To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <1165691.1165636454758.JavaMail.root@web22> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Congratulations. I know how good it feels to get something like timing to work right! I think the T-stat is supposed to open at 195*. full opening is quick it almost flips open IIRC. I would not change to the 180* except for the fact that the lower operating temp may kill your residual ping. You want to keep the engine temp up as close to the 190+ range for good economy. But since your carbed and it's an easy swap and you have one, I'd probably throw it in and see what happens. I run a 180* in my American's 4.0L. It seems to run at the 1/3 hot zone on the stock gauge and runs fine. NO ping at all, I had it in to keep engine temps down as my shortblock is a warranty pull for piston noise when hot, so I thought I'd keep it cooler and see what happened. I've never heard said piston noise and enjoy my "free" 4.0L greatly! -- Mark Price markprice242ATadelphia.net Morgantown, WV ---- Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> wrote: > Must be my lucky day. I figured I'd be at this all winter. > > I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected > -- and no pinging under load. > > I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance > curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today. > > I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical, > by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did > the trick. > > It begins to ping under heavy load when the coolant temp gets > hot-normal, eg. curb idle right as the electric fans come on, > around 200 degrees. Then it will ping. As soon as it cools > down driving, doesn't ping. (My test strip is Route 2, Glendale > Freeway north of Broadway etc, up to the foothills; 50 - 90 mph.) > > It runs up to 4000 rpm without misfiring/popping (which I think > was retard, before). It's hard to keep a heavy load on the engine > above 4000 as I'm going too fast for urban highways. (75mph in > 2nd gear is about 4300.) > > > > Now I have to really figure out coolant temps. I have > a Mr. Gasket 195 degree thermostat in there. I thought "195 > degree" means it begins to open at 195. Or is it fully open > at 195? I'm confused -- in cool air, flat and level, 60 mph, > sealevel, the coolant temp settles to a steady 172F. If I let > it idle, with the fan thermostat set to 200F, it cycles 195, > 205, 195, 205, ... with the fan. > > I have a Mr. Gasket 180 degree, I may put that in, but I don't > want the steady-state temp to drop to 160 or whatever! > > > _______________________________________________ > AMC-List mailing list > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list > > or go to http://www.amc-list.com ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 23:10:12 -0700 From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [AMC-List] Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It! To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <000b01c71b58$b48b0470$54dc0d82@john1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom and all I thought it might be worth comparing to what the factory spec would be for that year. Given of course that the engine is not a 1970 232 but the Hornet is a 1970 and I have a 1970 TSM and that is the first year that tune up specifications were considered in the light of smog criteria which did make some differences and I loaned out my 1967 TSM and do not have it back yet so!!!!!!! Ignition timing chart, page 4-30 232 all transmissions Initial timing @ 500 rpm w/vacuum hoses disconnected 3 =/- 1 BTDC Maximum Degrees Advance @ 2000 RPM w/Vacuum hoses connected 33 degrees =/- 4 Centrifugal Advance Engine RPM and Degrees, on the car. 232 I-6 900rpm 4-6 Degrees 2100 rpm 16-20 degrees Vacuum Advance Engine Degrees 232 I-6 Degrees Max Advance 22 Now the way I read this it seems to say that there is a possibility of a maximum of 42 degrees advance available at 2100+rpm with 16 to 17 inches of mercury at the vacuum can of the distributor. And of course as you start pulling a load the vacuum advance will retard the spark at any given rpm depending on the amount of load which translates into reduced vacuum until you get down to zero at which point the only advance would be mechanical and at 2100 rpm that would be 16 -20 degrees. Depending on the year of the car or the distributor, the recommended vacuum source could be either ported vacuum or manifold vacuum, and it just might be, depending on the year of the distributor the exact same distributor for each source of vacuum leaving you with a distributor that does not have as much vacuum advance available for use as ported vacuum starts out at zero inches of mercury at idle rather than 17 or so inches of mercury that manifold vacuum source does and then increases as engine rpm thus air flow through the carburetor increases. With the caveat that ported vacuum "can" be equal to but never greater than intake manifold vacuum. It does have a tendency though to be self limited to about 10 inches of mercury maximum under normal engine operation. Using ported vacuum on a distributor that was originally designed for intake manifold vacuum will cause the timing to run later longer and that is good for smog criteria but bad for fuel economy and over all performance. I believe in the very early years of smog tuned engines that was the case. As to how far or how long that was done I do not know as it has not been important to me to find out. Keep in mind that much of the smog tuning though was done so to meet the 2 or 3 min. warm up time that started when the engine was first started and then through vacuum switching circuits were shut down and did not function until the next cold start. At this time though many systems ran with intake manifold vacuum to the distributor which would advance the timing at idle to help keep the engine running, but when the engine warmed up ported vacuum was switched to the distributor vacuum canister to run the timing dynamically later. This caused increased heat of the combustion chamber. Also the mechanism changed from year to year as the criteria changed as did in some years different models had different criteria there for different hook ups to make it work. For example in 1980 8 different configurations that could exist under the hood and this does not include those Eagles that were smogged as light trucks for the state of California or any 4 cylinder variations. However one of the 1980 combinations uses a non-linear control valve that can supply as needed; Full Manifold Vacuum Ported Vacuum And aprox. a 10 inches of mercury. This gives a 3rd variation of controlled advance criteria. So the question becomes, with Toms full mechanical advance, what is his set up giving at 2100 rpm vs the factory spec for that year and engine combination and what happens when the load becomes high enough to require later or retarded timing and a rpm based advance can't supply it? Food for thought Snip I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected -- and no pinging under load. I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today. I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical, by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did the trick. Snip I too am interested in seeing what the advance curve looks like. John. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:31:50 -0800 From: "Larry R. Daum" <mramc@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] More AMC INk To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20061209002846.02b63188@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed RE:More AMC INk I got back from the books stores in Vegas with the latest copy of Hemmings Muscle Machines which has an 68 to 70 AMX buyers guide article. I don't go along with there pricing however. Pricing has pretty much gone past the $25,000 for a recently redone car. LRDaum ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 05:08:20 -0500 From: Russell Neyhart <rtneyhart@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <457A8B14.8020205@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Good Morning Mark, You might try here: http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/AUT194/. They have LED 194s in a variety of colors. In the picture, the bulbs are in a trailer light where the light only needs to go to "one side", i.e. away from the trailer frame. I'm not sure, but I would suspect that you need light that is omni-directional. This may be a good place to start in any case. Regards, Russ from Pa. 1988 Eagle P.S.: We're keeping the kids... if I can't get the seat belt issue resolved, there's always leather helmets, goggles, and scarves... hold on tight! Mark Price wrote: > I got a delemma of very minimal concern, but I can't decide what to do about it! > I've got a nice Sony head unit in my American, blue flourescent lite display and backlighting of switches. I tried sime of the blue 194 bulbs in the factory gauges and they are so darkly tinted I can barely see the qauges, this is with the factory green shields pulled out. I'm now in the process of doing a custom install of 6 Autometer Sport comp gauges. I need to either > get different blue tinted 194 bulbs, > Buy the blue covers from Autometer for clear 194 bulbs or > use LEDs. > I know LEDS won't dim, I don't care I run dash lights at full. > if I choose Leds, > which ones? > Where do I buy them? > > This may seem trivial, but it won't be easy for me to accomplish bulb changes after the final install, so I'd like to get this right! > > On the stupidity side! I ended with two water temp gauges! :] DUH, got wrapped up in the whole eBay shopping experience and bought two of them! Anyone need a nice shiney new one???? 2 1/8" version! > > Mark Price > markprice242ATadelphia.net > Morgantown, WV > > _______________________________________________ > AMC-List mailing list > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list > > or go to http://www.amc-list.com > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ AMC-List mailing list AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 21 ****************************************