AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 20
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 20
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- Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:52:24 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fuel Injecting the big dogs
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
2. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
3. Re: 232 Trans into a '64 American.. (Sandwich Maker)
4. Re: NEW, not rebuilt, distributors?
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
5. Re: 232 Trans into a '64 American.. (Mark Price)
6. Re: NEW, not rebuilt, distributors? (Tom Jennings)
7. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Widiker, John D)
8. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Sandwich Maker)
9. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Widiker, John D)
10. speaking of carbs (russ hathaway)
11. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Widiker, John D)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:21:36 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C6DF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hmmm... just use a 1V (2.5L four) computer setup from a GM, substitute
the YF for the stock TB. The GM 2.5L TB flows more than a YF though. At
least the butterfly is a lot bigger. Just based on the butterfly size
the GM 2.5L TB flows more than a Carter WCD 2V carb. The GM TB is
something like 2.25" in diameter IIRC. It's been a long time since I
toyed with the idea of using one on an AMC engine. It would work well on
a bored out 1V intake and give a little more power than a BBD 2V -- but
the main gain would be driveability. A long six really needs injectors
at each port.
Someone (Jim?) mentioned figuring out how to inject a 196. The 1V TBI
would work great, but the side of the intake "trough" could be directly
drilled and tapped for injectors. If the computer wouldn't object only
four would be needed since cylinders 2-3 and 4-5 have siamesed intake
ports. I wonder if one could just connect two sets of wires to one
injector (with diodes to prevent feedback)? Those two injectors would
get a lot more use than the other pair, but shouldn't be a problem. With
a batch fire system it should work, sequential would depend on how close
the siamesed injector cylinders are in the firing order. Of course two
injectors could be installed side by side. This would work for the
L-head too. Now that would be something -- a port injected flat-head
six!!
There are Stromberg carb body based TBs out there now. One of the hot
rod supply companies made them for two and three deuce setups on
flat-head Ford V-8s.
----------------------
Tom wrote:
I did calcs and drawings for a "FI Carter YF" (up to 250HP).
Can do it with a single injector, in a modified YF. I think I
know how to measure air flow and engine demand w/two pressure
sensors (need to proof that) in a hacked up YF. No need for
recirculating fuel or even tightly regulated fuel pressure --
simply adjust pulse width with instantaneous pressure ("area
under the curve"). Idle air is in a YF already... simple
thermistor for carb temp (good enough for the carburetor, close
enough to coolant :-) Everything but the fuel boost pump could
fit inside the carburetor body -- electronics too! With feedback
(wide-band O2) I could make it primitively learn.
To proof it I'd need a "flow bench" air pump and flow meter
to characterize my flow/demand measurement with two pressure
sensors. If that works I know I could make it go. Closed-loop
software servo systems I can do.
Too many possible projects in the world though.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:10:19 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: <aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C749@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Armand, everyone I've ever talked to about the Holley EFI system has
said "spend the money for the closed loop option!" (back when it was an
add-on, which was after the first kit came out). The first Holley system
was really made for the drag strip, not street use. You had a control
box and had to set everything! The only racer I ever talked to that used
it successfully and really liked it kept a chart with key measurements
(temp, humidity, altitude, 60' time, 1/4 mile time) for each track, and
what settings were used. He would then take those readings before a run
and make the proper settings. Car was pretty consistent after a couple
years running. Every time he made a change (cam, jets, whatever) he had
to make an estimate of the settings then start over keeping records. He
got good with it -- after a half dozen runs it would be pretty much
dialed in. To get the best results on a street vehicle you had to make
minor adjustments all day. A carb was better! He never tried it on the
street, realizing the amount of adjusting that would be needed to make
it superior to a good carb. The closed loop kit made it streetable, but
it was still hard to adjust until a computerized tuning system was
introduced. The old ones had four or five dials that were adjusted
manually, no computer interface that I recall.
The Edelbrock system is great, but there's something they don't tell you
in most of the literature -- you need a PROM programmed for the
base-line. The Edel EFI is made by an OEM supplier for Edelbrock. When
you buy it you get a card to fill out with your engine parameters. The
company then burns a PROM and sends it to you. THEN you can program the
computer -- or rather fine tune your engine. The computer still only has
so much +/- adjustment from the base-line parameters. To me this isn't a
truly programmable system. If you swap cams you will most likely have to
have another PROM burned, unless the difference in the previous cam is
relatively minor. If you like to tinker with the engine and try
different things you'll quickly run out of adjustment range. If you have
your engine about where you want it and don't plan on making a lot of
changes, this is great! Otherwise you need a truly user programmable
system.
As far as user programmable and affordable systems go, there are two
that I know of. Both require a little work on the user's part. They are
just computer and wiring systems, you have to adapt/furnish intake,
wiring connectors, and sensors.
The first is the MegaSquirt (http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html).
Depending on your level of electronics skill, you can build the thing
from scratch, a bare circuit board and parts kit, or buy complete from
several different vendors who will guarantee them. Glen Hoag is a dealer
for ready to go controllers (a list member -- www.glensgarage.com -- for
an article on one of his units see
http://www.olenik.com/tvr/tvr.pl?page=fuelsystem). These have been used
on everything from lawn mower engines to turbo V-8s, and I think on a
couple Jag V-12s.
The most complete unit that has been around longer is from Simple
Digital Systems (www.sdsefi.com). This comes with a hand held
programmer. It's made in Canada and has been around since 1993. Costs
more than the MegaSquirt, but it's more sophisticated too. It's even
been used on aircraft (but isn't certified -- home builts and owner
conversions)! I've watched this one develop for a while now, and if I
were going to use a ready made aftermarket system this would be it. I
don't think anything else is as flexible at the price. There are similar
systems out there, but all are more expensive and/or limited.
The new Racetek system has the advantage of being all but bolt-on and
drive. You still have to connect a computer to put in the base-line
info. But this is about as easy as it gets -- bolt-on, plug into your
desk-top computer, answer a questionnaire type program, install ECU,
then drive!! Not a lot of tinkering -- the system adjusts itself as you
drive.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:21:46 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 232 Trans into a '64 American..
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612081421.kB8ELkK09869@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
"
"
" ---- Sandwich Maker <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
" > " From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
" > "
" > " Imagine my delight to discover that the Pinto shaft is bolt into a T5
" > " swap in an American with an AMC15 rear axle! It would have been a true
" > " bolt in, except I had to swap the trans yoke to the AMC T5 version.
" > " --
" >
" > why did you have to change yokes? you're using a mustang t5, right?
"
" Nope, right now I have an AMC T5 in it.
" AMC in their infinite wisdom had the tailhousing made to use a 904's yoke and speedo setup!
that figures. they did the same thing with the last t14s!
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:21:42 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] NEW, not rebuilt, distributors?
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C75D@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tom, as long as you're using points you're going to get some mechanical
"slop" in the system and point bounce, especially at high rpm
("...timing jitter above 3000 rpm, plus and minus 3 degrees or so.").
Switch to an electronic system and most of it will go away! While
rebuild quality has slipped, I don't think that's the problem here. Even
a new distributor built to OEM specs (or even a little tighter) will
give similar results. Might be a little less "jitter", but still +/- a
degree or two. Pertronix is the easy way to go!
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 7:18:01 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 232 Trans into a '64 American..
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <12607247.1165591081819.JavaMail.root@web27>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yeah and since I have everything laid out and setup so nice now. When I swap to an actual Ford World class trans I will be changing it over to the AMC15 tailhousing!
AMC did not use anything on that tailhousing that matches any other T-5 except length. Shifter placement, Speedo setup, mount are all different.
I wish I could find a "core" AMC T5 to pull a tailhousing from. I realy hate to tear mine apart. Near as I can tell it has never been touched and even being 24+- years old it works flawlessly! I can't seem to locate an AMC T5 tailhousing. I may post it over on the forum again, one last time.
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Sandwich Maker <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> " From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "
> "
> " ---- Sandwich Maker <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> " > " From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> " > "
> " > " Imagine my delight to discover that the Pinto shaft is bolt into a T5
> " > " swap in an American with an AMC15 rear axle! It would have been a true
> " > " bolt in, except I had to swap the trans yoke to the AMC T5 version.
> " > " --
> " >
> " > why did you have to change yokes? you're using a mustang t5, right?
> "
> " Nope, right now I have an AMC T5 in it.
> " AMC in their infinite wisdom had the tailhousing made to use a 904's yoke and speedo setup!
>
> that figures. they did the same thing with the last t14s!
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Andrew Hay the genius nature
> internet rambler is to see what all have seen
> adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:04:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] NEW, not rebuilt, distributors?
To: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612080901520.8066@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
> Tom, as long as you're using points you're going to get some mechanical
> "slop" in the system and point bounce, especially at high rpm
> ("...timing jitter above 3000 rpm, plus and minus 3 degrees or so.").
Points?! Me, points!? Not on your life in this car! Duraspark
II, big Ford coil, 8mm wires, big cap, ...!
It's either the Duraspark distributor, or the timing light,
that's got the jitter. I may repeat the test and fiddle with the
placement of the clamp-on pickup to see if it's that. Otherwise,
it's a bum distributor.
I've not found a good-as-new used or rebuild distributor (or
carb, or starter, for that matter) in years. Cardone is fair,
and Tomco is crap. Part of the problem is simply cores are all
worn out I guess.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:28:51 -0500
From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<053E34168692C4438533FE33E79C1A181233F7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Now that MegaSquirt has been brought up I've gotta chime in.
The controllers we use at our shop are all MegaSquirt. My AMX is getting
one with a custom manifold, my 64 Tempest uses 2 of them, one to run the
vortec 4.3 and the other to run the 4L60E. We offer stand alone setups
installed and tuned and when we are doing something really odd we call
the guy who wrote the coil pack code, he is one of our good friends. He
splits his time between Michigan and Florida so we line the really off
the wall stuff up with times he's here. Our turbo probe runs no stock
computer or wiring and has been putting 350 horsepower to the ground
with a MegaSquirt for a few years (previously we used an FMU and the M/S
is making much more power and runs better). MegaSquirt can now use wide
bands for those who want them, has an autotune feature, can run coil
packs (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump),
can control water injection or any 12 volt system in a variety of
trigger schemes. EI: at 5 pounds boost start water injection, at this
percentage of throttle position do this or that, etc. They are batch
fire which some people don't prefer but we've had zero problems with
them once they are set up properly. We do sell completed units (through
PRD) and have bought stuff from Glensgarage previously and have never
been disappointed with his stuff either.
~John
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:10 AM
To: aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
Armand, everyone I've ever talked to about the Holley EFI system has
said "spend the money for the closed loop option!" (back when it was an
add-on, which was after the first kit came out). The first Holley system
was really made for the drag strip, not street use. You had a control
box and had to set everything! The only racer I ever talked to that used
it successfully and really liked it kept a chart with key measurements
(temp, humidity, altitude, 60' time, 1/4 mile time) for each track, and
what settings were used. He would then take those readings before a run
and make the proper settings. Car was pretty consistent after a couple
years running. Every time he made a change (cam, jets, whatever) he had
to make an estimate of the settings then start over keeping records. He
got good with it -- after a half dozen runs it would be pretty much
dialed in. To get the best results on a street vehicle you had to make
minor adjustments all day. A carb was better! He never tried it on the
street, realizing the amount of adjusting that would be needed to make
it superior to a good carb. The closed loop kit made it streetable, but
it was still hard to adjust until a computerized tuning system was
introduced. The old ones had four or five dials that were adjusted
manually, no computer interface that I recall.
The Edelbrock system is great, but there's something they don't tell you
in most of the literature -- you need a PROM programmed for the
base-line. The Edel EFI is made by an OEM supplier for Edelbrock. When
you buy it you get a card to fill out with your engine parameters. The
company then burns a PROM and sends it to you. THEN you can program the
computer -- or rather fine tune your engine. The computer still only has
so much +/- adjustment from the base-line parameters. To me this isn't a
truly programmable system. If you swap cams you will most likely have to
have another PROM burned, unless the difference in the previous cam is
relatively minor. If you like to tinker with the engine and try
different things you'll quickly run out of adjustment range. If you have
your engine about where you want it and don't plan on making a lot of
changes, this is great! Otherwise you need a truly user programmable
system.
As far as user programmable and affordable systems go, there are two
that I know of. Both require a little work on the user's part. They are
just computer and wiring systems, you have to adapt/furnish intake,
wiring connectors, and sensors.
The first is the MegaSquirt (http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html).
Depending on your level of electronics skill, you can build the thing
from scratch, a bare circuit board and parts kit, or buy complete from
several different vendors who will guarantee them. Glen Hoag is a dealer
for ready to go controllers (a list member -- www.glensgarage.com -- for
an article on one of his units see
http://www.olenik.com/tvr/tvr.pl?page=fuelsystem). These have been used
on everything from lawn mower engines to turbo V-8s, and I think on a
couple Jag V-12s.
The most complete unit that has been around longer is from Simple
Digital Systems (www.sdsefi.com). This comes with a hand held
programmer. It's made in Canada and has been around since 1993. Costs
more than the MegaSquirt, but it's more sophisticated too. It's even
been used on aircraft (but isn't certified -- home builts and owner
conversions)! I've watched this one develop for a while now, and if I
were going to use a ready made aftermarket system this would be it. I
don't think anything else is as flexible at the price. There are similar
systems out there, but all are more expensive and/or limited.
The new Racetek system has the advantage of being all but bolt-on and
drive. You still have to connect a computer to put in the base-line
info. But this is about as easy as it gets -- bolt-on, plug into your
desk-top computer, answer a questionnaire type program, install ECU,
then drive!! Not a lot of tinkering -- the system adjusts itself as you
drive.
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:03:10 -0500 (EST)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200612081803.kB8I3Aa03594@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
" From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
"
" (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump),
you could get one out of a '99-up 4.0 to do that. they have
distributorless ign.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:18:20 -0500
From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<053E34168692C4438533FE33E79C1A181233F8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Same depth and gear as the v-8?????
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Sandwich Maker
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:03 PM
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
" From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx> "
" (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump),
you could get one out of a '99-up 4.0 to do that. they have
distributorless ign.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:38:24 -0800 (PST)
From: russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] speaking of carbs
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <740076.17300.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Armand; did you ever figure out the carbs linkage? You
local library should have several manuals covering
that carb. Motors seem to have a better breakdown than
the others and here in Salem the library has about a
dozen manuals, so you should be able to find one your
way too.....Russ
____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:51:25 -0500
From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<053E34168692C4438533FE33E79C1A181233FC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sorry that was just a shock, I'm assuming you wouldn't have posted that
if it weren't LOL.
I used a ready made one for the 4.3 that was for a Chevy 350, figured I
was out of luck for one for amc v-8s and it didn't occur to me that the
4.0 would be the same. That's going to save me a bit of work. Do you
know if they used a cam position sensor in the end of that 4.0
distributorless system?
~J
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Widiker, John D
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:18 PM
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
Same depth and gear as the v-8?????
-----Original Message-----
From: amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:amc-list-bounces@xxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Sandwich Maker
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:03 PM
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
" From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx> "
" (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump),
you could get one out of a '99-up 4.0 to do that. they have
distributorless ign.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay the genius nature
internet rambler is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
or go to http://www.amc-list.com
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 20
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