AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: State of the Charity AMX (Tom Jennings)
   2. Re: Fuel Injecting the big dogs (Tom Jennings)
   3. Re: Fuel Injecting the big dogs (Tom Jennings)
   4. optimum AMC six ignition timing (Tom Jennings)
   5. Fuel Injecting the big Dogs (Armand Eshleman)
   6. NEW, not rebuilt, distributors? (Tom Jennings)
   7. Re: 232 Trans into a '64 American.. (Mark Price)


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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:09:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] State of the Charity AMX
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612071000330.12466@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Thanks John for the excellent report on the state of affairs.

If there was a written inventory of parts that was both public,
and went with the car, when the next person receives the car
it would behoove them to go over the inventory and see what's
been added or is missing.

It's likely there will always be discrepancies (parts repaired,
installed, found to be damaged, out for repair, lost on a shelf,
etc) but the big stuff is likely to be remembered ("that rocker
panel got installed").

A running photo and prose commentary on the project, in this
age of digital cameras and web sites, would go a long way
towards remembering where stuff goes AND juice people on a
living project. Maybe get some high school kid to come by on
weekends and add to a project web page? There's got to be people
who would would love to hang out around a classic car but don't
have the skills to work on it, but would like to help out.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:34:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612071020410.12466@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:

> The Retrotek system has a MAP sensor and an O2 sensor (wide band/four
> wire -- says it just needs to be in one side on a V-8). 

I did calcs and drawings for a "FI Carter YF" (up to 250HP).
Can do it with a single injector, in a modified YF.  I think I
know how to measure air flow and engine demand w/two pressure
sensors (need to proof that) in a hacked up YF. No need for
recirculating fuel or even tightly regulated fuel pressure --
simply adjust pulse width with instantaneous pressure ("area
under the curve"). Idle air is in a YF already... simple
thermistor for carb temp (good enough for the carburetor, close
enough to coolant :-) Everything but the fuel boost pump could
fit inside the carburetor body -- electronics too!  With feedback
(wide-band O2) I could make it primitively learn.

To proof it I'd need a "flow bench" air pump and flow meter
to characterize my flow/demand measurement with two pressure
sensors. If that works I know I could make it go. Closed-loop
software servo systems I can do.

Too many possible projects in the world though.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:37:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612071035190.12466@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Sandwich Maker wrote:

> " That's really good news -- I'd never heard of anyone running
> " open-loop *FI successfully.
> 
> until the '80s, all efi was open loop.
> [...}

Well yes -- I meant aftermarket add-on -- Holley Pro-Ject bolted
onto a Jeep without feedback -- and didn't mean to imply that
it was universally bad, just extremely difficult what with all
the factors.

> not linearly proportional or carbs would be a lot simpler.  iirc vac
> in a venturi - which is what pulls the fuel through the jet - is
> proportional to the square of the air velocity.

I think so to, it's definitely not linear! It's amazing that carbs
work at all.


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:22:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] optimum AMC six ignition timing
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612071038020.12466@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I'm still working on determining the right timing advance curve
for the 258. I can tell you so far that what works for the AMC
V8's does not work on my 258 six.

The V8 rule of thumb is "36 - 38 degrees of ignition advance
timing, all in by 2500 - 3000 rpm" which usually translates
to softer centrifugal springs and an initial setting of 10  -
12 degrees. Done!

I was wrong; too much advance for the six.  (John Elle, you are
vindicated.) It definitely wants more advance than the factory
settings, but the curve is a lot flatter (later).

The V8 curve on the 6 pings too much at low/midrange (2000 - 2500
rpm) and retard-backfires above 3000 rpm. In the low/midrange
RPM, it's very temperature sensitive; this might actually be
good, in a sense, if it means I am on the hairy edge of too much
(so now I know what it wants in that range).


I used a Mr. Gasket spring kit for Ford (Duraspark). These
are far too soft (too early too fast)! Full advance was around
2700. I had a couple of old Duraspark distribs and pulled the
springs from them. None are marked, so I graded them by how
far each deflected under a random mass.

I just stuck in stiffer springs, now it's all in by 3200. I'll
try that for a while, but I think it's still all in too early.

Wouldn't it be funny if I end up with factory springs. Very
funny.



After 500 miles, the RN9Y plugs look just fine; it had RN12LY's
in there.  (Champion.) The 9's are the next-coldest plug
available; there is no 11 or 10. There's almost no difference
between the 9's and 12's in color. Weird.

But moving from RN12LYC to RN9Y did not affect pinging enough
to measure. After changing the plugs, I did road-setting of
static advance, and when I was done, I ended up with the same
static advance (10 degrees) as with the RN12LY's!



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:55:43 -0600
From: "Armand Eshleman" <aje1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <006301c71a5b$35605400$6601a8c0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks for all the great responses people...............

Even though no one really answered my original questions about having
any experience with Edelbrock or Holley injection kits. I'm still happy that
it drummed up a little discussion.

What really disappointed me was no one commented on the sex of my Javelin
versus their car................ How the heck do you guys think these things
reproduced
in the first place???  They went extinct, you know, because their food chain
was
disrupted by the gasoline crisis of the seventies........no more high octane
leaded fuel!!!!
Without food they couldn't reproduce!!!!  Ha ha

Have a good one every one,

Armand





That's really good news -- I'd never heard of anyone running
" open-loop *FI successfully.

until the '80s, all efi was open loop.

my family had two '71 saab 99s, one with carbs and one with the
original bosch jetronic first used on the '66 vw squareback and afaik
based on bendix patents [remember the '57 rambler rebel?] bosch bought.
the engines were identical save for induction.

the efi car got almost 10% more power, better mileage, better
driveability, and ran on lower octane than the carb car.  the only
problem we ever had with it was the engine temp sensor; when that
failed the idle speed would 'hunt' up and down in cold weather until
it warmed up.  other operation was not affected.

" Even carbs are not exactly "open loop"; fuel flow is proportional to
" airflow plus and minus.

not linearly proportional or carbs would be a lot simpler.  iirc vac
in a venturi - which is what pulls the fuel through the jet - is
proportional to the square of the air velocity.
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:46:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] NEW, not rebuilt, distributors?
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612071634380.8066@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Are new, NOT rebuild Duraspark distributors available for sale?
Cardone etc all do shit work these days, with used parts,
like main shafts.


In tuning my Duraspark distrib, I disassembled a couple of
used ones from the pile, and one I bought at U-pull-it a few
weeks back. None were junk, just used.

While all the shafts turned smoothly, there was some drag.
Upon tearing mine down to parts, I found the shaft scored
mildly. I mentioned this before, and it's not news to anyone that
they wear. But I also dug all the dried out goo from the housing,
bwtween the two broze bushings, and cleaned it all out like-new.
I knocked the high points off the shaft with a fine file,
followed by 600 grit. I cleaned out the oilin helix that draws
oil up the shaft, and lubed it all with oil before assembly.

Now when I sping it with my fingers spins it runs dozen turns
before stopping. And when I pulled the distrib out today to
change the springs, it had actually pumped a bit of oil up
the shaft into the bottom of the housing, like it's apparently
supposed to.

Every single one I had in my hands had the same drag on the
shaft; it's just wear and dried out lube caking the housing
and oil helix from age.

I got this thing mechanically and electrically perfect as I can
get it, the advance plate moving smoothly, reluctor aligned
right, clean connectors, etc. Yet I have timing jitter above
3000 rpm, plus and minus 3 degrees or so. I bought this distrib
from NAPA as a Cardone rebuild.

I'm starting to think I might have to by an Accell or MSD
distributor just to get a new one without worn-out parts.


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 9:42:46 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 232 Trans into a '64 American..
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <2650605.1165513366046.JavaMail.root@web21>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Nope, right now I have an AMC T5 in it.
AMC in their infinite wisdom had the tailhousing made to use a 904's  yoke and speedo setup! 
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV


---- Sandwich Maker <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> " From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> " 
> " Non big nut Americans share that Ujoint with things as obscure as 77 Pinto wagons!
> " Imagine my delight to discover that the Pinto shaft is bolt into a T5
> " swap in an American with an AMC15 rear axle! It would have been a true
> " bolt in, except I had to swap the trans yoke to the AMC T5 version.
> " Same exact Ujoint on both. The Pinto shaft is even larger diameter!
> " $20 for the used shaft sure beat the cost of having one made.
> " --
> 
> why did you have to change yokes?  you're using a mustang t5, right?
> 
> the u-joint is a common size.  iirc even some foreign cars use it.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
> internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
> adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> 
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com



------------------------------

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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19
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