AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 15
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 15
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- Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:25:06 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: trans for 232 six (Mark Price)
2. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Mark Price)
3. Re: Continuing Saga of Doc the Jeep, Part II.5
(Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
4. Re: t-89/r10od (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
5. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
6. Re: Hardened valve seats no longer available? (Tom Jennings)
7. Re: seat belt color (Tom Jennings)
8. Re: Fuel Injecting the big dogs (Tom Jennings)
9. AMC INK (namdra@xxxxxxxx)
10. State of the Charity AMX (Widiker, John D)
11. Re: AMC INK (JOE FULTON)
12. Re: Trans for 232 six. (Tom Jennings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 7:51:29 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] trans for 232 six
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Jim Blair <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <32347180.1165420289134.JavaMail.root@web32>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
The case I have has a bolt in Sprague mount if anyone is interested.
it and a pile of parts plus are 73-904 trans are all here for the taking!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Jim Blair <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> A: I would opt for a 998/999 (all are water cooled) due to the heavier rear
> band (the case of the 904 was remade to accommodate it) which was the second
> weakest point of the 9xx series trans. The other weak spot is the neck of
> the torque converter and the rear sprague tearing loose was another. (the
> 999 case I have from an '00 Wrangler 4.0L has a bolt in rear sprague)
> Another option is a 2wd AW4 with all the accessories (flexplate and
> starter. Check the size of the pilot hole to be sure) then you can graft on
> a 4.0L head later with the EFI. (Just make sure you use the EFI the
> flexplate was made for. '87 to '90 with an EGR valve on the engine is Renix.
> 09/90 and later are HO)
>
>
> From: "L. D. Lyons" <ldlyons@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [AMC-List] trans for 232 six
> To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <003d01c717c3$130b07a0$6401a8c0@lyonsamd2000xp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Iam putting a 72 232 in my 64 american and have decided to use
> transmission from 72 or later. My repair manual says that the
> 727, 904 & 998 were Automatics that will work with the 232 six.
> Which would be the best for my 64. I realize that I will need to
> change the yoke on the drive shaft and other stuff. Are these
> trans fluid or air cooled
> Butch Lyons
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 7:55:34 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <29189314.1165420534873.JavaMail.root@web32>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I think the 2.53's will work. IIRC, Tom Bunsey had an American AMC 20 axle he had swapped 2:21's into when I picked up the convertible from him. I may be wrong though, so don't quote me on that!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Sandwich Maker <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> " From: Todd Tomason <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "
> " I have a 998 out of a 73 Javelin that I've offered to sell to Butch. This
> " transmission was used by AMC with the 304. Does anyone know of any pros or
> " cons to using this transmission with Butch's 232?
>
> pro - ought to be bulletproof behind a stock six
> con - still needs a six flexplate, or the 304's rebalanced
>
> can't think of anything else.
>
> " On Monday 04 December 2006 21:43, John Elle wrote:
> "
> " > Any year 904 will work and bolt up to the engine.
> " > []
> " > In 1980 AMC started to use the lock up torque converter
> " > version which is interesting as first and second gear are lower geared
> " > to improve acceleration when using taller rear axle gears. For example
> " > 2.53 is standard on a 1980 Spirit. When used with that rear axle ratio
> " > you can expect better gasoline mileage and as the transmission is set up
> " > with lower gears in 1st and 2nd acceleration is not compromised.
>
> i've been wondering if 2.53s would go into a '60s axle. there was a
> change in '70 but as far as i can tell it's the housing and pinion seal
> but *not* the pinion itself. [non big nut setups of course] i suspect
> they'd fit though i have my doubts about the 2.35s and 2.21s; the rogue
> 2.37s had a special housing different from all the other gears.
>
> the rogue axle might be an excellent match for a lockup 904 and 232, if
> highway cruising is the goal. i think it'd suffer a little in
> stop-and-go.
>
> " > If you
> " > find a parts car purchase the transmission, torque converter,
> " > transmission mount, yoke, cooling lines, kick down linkage from the
> " > carburetor to the transmission and shift linkage to ease your
> " > conversion. They can be found in any AMC I-6 automatic equipped
> " > automobile.
>
> i don't think you'll find a yoke compatible with the tiny u-joints on
> the big nut driveshaft. this means a custom driveshaft [not a very big
> deal] or conversion to the non-big-nut setup on '65-6 232s and all '67-9
> american sixes.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Andrew Hay the genius nature
> internet rambler is to see what all have seen
> adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and think what none thought
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:35:00 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Continuing Saga of Doc the Jeep, Part II.5
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A310D93B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'll third or fourth (or....) the choke as being the most likely culprit
for the hard to start when cold engine. What's the outside temp like
there? Even with the choke working right it will be harder to start.
That's why a lot of late model carb cars have a tube from the manifold
up to the air cleaner controlled by vacuum switches -- to divert warm
air in the carb for cold weather starts/operating.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:40:56 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] t-89/r10od
To: <jay@xxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A310D94E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jay, that thing won't bolt to the 232 bell. The input shaft on the V-8
trannys are a couple inches (or close to that) longer than the six
cylinder inputs. The T-89 has the same input and main case as a T-10.
you'd need a six cylinder T-10 bell -- I think it's the same depth as
the V-8 bell to use the exact same trans as the V-8, but they are also
rare. I've only even heard of one or two. They were apparently used in
Mexico, most likely in trucks. Dave mentioned that this one has a
different bell than his 196, so it has to be a V-8 bell.
The T-85 was used as a HD trans behind the early sixes, I think.
If you need OD parts the OD unit itself is the same on ALL the BW OD
trannys. Only the 1"-2" thick adapter that holds the solenoid is
different between makes and models, six or V-8.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:54:21 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A310D961@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The V-8 model should bolt right on. I'm willing to bet the V-8 has a
higher rpm stall converter than the six, so might want to get a new or
rebuilt converter. Other than that it should bolt right up. The flex
plate should even work as long as the balance weight for the 304 can be
removed without damaging the plate. You should be able to grind the
welds down then remove the weight with a chisel if you can't grind all
the way through the welds.
Someone mentioned using this trans, or rather a lock-up version and a
high gear (2.53 or so) in the rear. I know AMC used a high gear like
that in Spirits and possibly Concords to get fuel mileage up. But I have
to tell you, that only works for highway mileage. In town mileage
suffers with such a high gear. I'd stick with something like a 3.08, no
higher than a 2.73. The auto does multiply engine torque by about 3:1,
so that helps get the car moving, but a little more gear surely won't
hurt. Those 2.53 geared cars are just a bit on the sluggish side taking
off. Unless you're planning on a lot of highway cruising you'll
appreciate a little more gear.
-------------
Date: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 07:31 AM
From: Todd Tomason <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
I have a 998 out of a 73 Javelin that I've offered to sell to Butch.
This
transmission was used by AMC with the 304. Does anyone know of any pros
or
cons to using this transmission with Butch's 232?
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:21:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Hardened valve seats no longer available?
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612061015570.5493@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
> Justin, that the hardened seats are no longer available should tell you
> something -- they aren't really required!
Yeah -- one of the big car mags some years ago did testing of
leaded vs. unleaded gas and valve wear, and found no more than 5%
increased wear on old "leaded" cars being run on unleaded gas.
Some people with a lot of emotional investment in it, or products
to sell, still propagate the valve-wear thing. But notice that
there's not been a huge run on premature valve jobs in the last
few decades...
It looks like lead probably wasn't really needed after all,
maybe ever. The whole world's been wrong before -- left-hand
lugnuts and all that rot. Could it be that the oil co's wanted
to productize and sell needless toxic additives? MTBE anyone...?
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:25:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] seat belt color
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612061021510.5493@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
> Julianos might be able to sew in the old buckles on new belts -- I've
> heard of someone having that done, but don't recall where. Juliano's
> does have the chrome "lift latch" type used in 60s Ramblers though.
There's nothing magical about the sewing -- there's massive
redundancy in the web and stiches, if the right heavy nylon
thread is used it will be as strong as original. Yes, I would --
and do -- trust my life on re-sewed belts.
I re-did the Hornet front belts; the rears are original. (They
stay wound in their retractors and got no sun-rot.)
My Rambler now, they're still the original belts, and man,
they look it. I admit it's dumb, they're all frayed, soft and
fuzzy. In that car I will just find junkyard replacements since
it's a robust driver and not a show-er.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:30:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612061026590.5493@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
> I haven't seen one -- I don't think it's in stores yet, but check this
> out:
> http://www.retrotekspeed.com/
That's totally great!!!!
I'll wait to see how it behaves without the other useful feedback
(air mass and flow, temperature, etc) but I don't see how it
could be worse than a carb, and if done right, 10X better.
But I want a 300cfm 2bbl version! Boo hoo!
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:59:54 -0600
From: namdra@xxxxxxxx
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC INK
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061206.125954.-16451467.0.NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The Feb. 2007 issue of Car Craft does a 5-page story on the '06 AMC
NATIONALS, sponsored by NAMDRA. In their "Burnout" section, is a pic and
blurb of an 80 Spirit/AMX doing a burnout. They also have a 5-page story
on "Learn how to fix a dent" featuring the CC/Rambler and in their "Rear
View" section, in a pic from the 80 Street Machine Nationals West, a
white AMX w/flames is in the background.
Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA NAMDRA@xxxxxxxx
8537 Antioch Rd., Salem, WI 53168 (262) 843-4326
JOIN NAMDRA, the best AMC club around!!
AMO#19, NAMDRA#46, AMCRC#974, NHRA#41915, IHRA#6766
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:05:09 -0500
From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] State of the Charity AMX
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<053E34168692C4438533FE33E79C1A181233CF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I've been holding off posting an update for a little bit now, time to
fill you guys in with where the project is at and what's being done to
move it forward. Some of what I'm going to say is a rehash, some not,
here it is.
PR: I've sent information to Car Craft, Hot Rod and Popular Hot rodding
magazines, I am sending info to Hemmings Muscle Machines shortly to get
some coverage for the project and to solicite parts and donations. I'm
also meeting with a local newspaper to get an article on the car
shortly.
Parts currently being obtained: I'm working with Legendary to try to get
the interior soft parts, I'll update as things happen. A buddy also has
put me in touch with Summit Racing's PR department
Supplies obtained: I have gotten basecoat/clearcoat and primer donated
by our local paint shop for the purpose of painting the car the original
color.
Commitments for labor: Hedidit paint has committed to doing the body
work (more on that later) and painting of the AMX. They will be starting
that phase once we have removed mechanicals and gotten it to the point
they want to begin work. I'm currently talking to an automotive
stripping business to see if we might be able to get it down to a
workable point for free, I haven't heard back yet with a yes or no.
Parts that are missing that were seemingly there at one time
(disappeared at some point):
Tail lights
Tail light buckets
Center light (reverse light)
Center light bucket
Correct grill turn signals (nos set donated by Benvie)
All the trim for the front end of the car headlight/hood and fender
trim/bumper scoops
Missing parts that are currently needed and were not previously believed
to be with the car:
http://www.mattsoldcars.com/charityamx/partsneeded.html
More to be added from the spreadsheet we are putting together (don't
have the copy here like I thought I did)
Parts that are in rough shape that could be repaired, might be easier to
find decent examples or get them donated
Dashpad
Shifter (very worn)
All wood grain overlays (I could do custom but this is a stock
restoration so we need some)
Arm rests
Lock levers
Pull straps
Gauges faces are very faded
Many more that I'll post shortly
Body work we are correcting before paint can be applied:
Passenger door perfectly aligned to the front fender that's very much in
the wrong place (meaning the door and fender are both way off)
Rocker panels are VERY rough and mostly composed of filler at this time
(anyone has some it would be nice to weld them in)
Rear of roof panel is somewhat s shaped at this time, looks like someone
roughed in some filler then shot primer over it (looks BAD)
Hood skin is not connected to the hood right now except at the edges,
this is distorting the shape and we're reattaching the two before we
form more opinions
Finding body seams that were bondo'd over, using an original amx for
reference.
The guy who did this work no longer works for Zion and I'm not judging
their work by this car... It is however a long way from being ready for
paint. They did a very nice job putting the quarter panel on the car and
I've got no complaints about how it looks.
With regard to the missing parts listed above: I've been in touch with
Zion Auto Body, they don't remember these parts being on or with the car
when it arrived. They also state that it's possible they were there when
it arrived. Zion stated if anything turns up they will contact me and
we'll ship them to rejoin the car. I have no reason to think they would
do otherwise, nobody acted like a princess or got all offended when I
asked, I came away having respect for these guys.
I do want to take this opportunity to make one very clear statement if I
may. It does not matter to me a bit who misplaced this or any stuff, who
may have taken it, or broken it, or allowed it to be taken hostage by an
international drug ring, I furthermore don't care a bit where these
parts are currently unless they can be found. If they turn up we need
them in a bad way. I do care a great deal about making this car a
success, to me what's already happened is irrelevant, what I'm concerned
where we are going and concerned about getting what we need to finish
it. This stuff is not cheap, putting broken old stuff on the car is
pointless so we are left needing stuff that's rare and spendy when it's
nice. This is part of owning/restoring/liking a 1970 AMX and one of the
major pitfalls of this car.
The Charity AMX is a good STARTING point right now, it's not close to
saleable, it's not close to nice, it's honestly worth a few thousand
dollars right now and there is no way in hell some paint alone is going
to get it in an auction much less sold. HOWEVER when I stare at it with
my eyes squinted just enough I can see a beautiful car though and that's
enough right now.
My friends and I are willing to work it like our lives depend on this
car happening, unless we or somebody else gets lots of parts this car is
never going to be done. I'm working to get people donating and involved
from the outside of the amc hobby, that's something I can do besides
working on it.
I bet you are saying "I don't have the parts that are needed or a shop
to work on it in but I want to help...." if you want to take part of
the responsibility There are things you can do:
Compose an email (this one I sent is for us on the list, not outsiders)
and tell people about this project, ask your buddy or boss to throw a
$20 or whatever into the pot to help kids, it's the holiday season, no
better time. Frank has the purse and here are the details for how to
help him fill it:
There are two ways to donate money. The first is by mailing a check or
money order (please, no cash) to:
Frank Swygert/AMX
574 Roberta Avenue
Dover, DE 19901-4646
Phone 302-233-4925
The second is by credit card through PayPal. To make a credit card
donation, go to http://farna.home.att.net/purchase.html. Click on the
button for "Canada/Mexico/Overseas and All Other Purchases" (this is the
third one on the page). This will take you to the PayPal site where you
can make the donation. Be sure to indicate that this is a donation for
the project AMX.
If anyone has any issue with what I've said, or what's going on, or
what's missing I expect it to be dealt like grown up men or women, that
means posts to the list are factual and bring added value. I don't mind
criticism (in fact I should have had my sheets with me before even
starting this mail) and if it's going to bring value it's appropriate.
If anyone wants to attack anyone with things that aren't going to help
or have no relevance to moving ahead then deal with it off list, one of
my biggest fears has been starting a flame war by stating things about
this car when I have no idea which people have a hand or emotional
investment in it, thus starting a flame war.
Lets see how this mail goes and I'll send more updates shortly
~John
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:15:33 -0800 (PST)
From: JOE FULTON <piper_pa20@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC INK
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061206191533.97878.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jock Said:
The Feb. 2007 issue of Car Craft does a 5-page story
on the '06 AMC
NATIONALS, sponsored by NAMDRA. In their "Burnout"
section, is a pic and
blurb of an 80 Spirit/AMX doing a burnout. They also
have a 5-page story
on "Learn how to fix a dent" featuring the CC/Rambler
and in their "Rear
View" section, in a pic from the 80 Street Machine
Nationals West, a
white AMX w/flames is in the background.
Jock Jocewicz - President/Editor NAMDRA
------------------------------------------------
Hey, that's too much AMC crap. I'm cancelling my
subscription. (just kidding).
Joe Fulton
Salinas, CA
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:24:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Trans for 232 six.
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612061112270.5493@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM wrote:
> Someone mentioned using this trans, or rather a lock-up version and a
> high gear (2.53 or so) in the rear. I know AMC used a high gear like
> that in Spirits and possibly Concords to get fuel mileage up. But I have
> to tell you, that only works for highway mileage. In town mileage
> suffers with such a high gear. I'd stick with something like a 3.08, no
> higher than a 2.73. The auto does multiply engine torque by about 3:1,
> so that helps get the car moving, but a little more gear surely won't
> hurt. Those 2.53 geared cars are just a bit on the sluggish side taking
> off. Unless you're planning on a lot of highway cruising you'll
> appreciate a little more gear.
I'm with Frank here --
I run 25" tires (205/70-R14's), a 2.73:1 axle, and an early 904
(non-lock up), and a 258 with the later aluminum intake, a 2
bbl Weber, 2.5" exhaust turbo muffler, Duraspark II ignition,
and careful tuning -- quicker than stock but not that much.
The 70 Hornet is a lot lighter than later cars, no side-impact
panels in the doors etc, so it's pretty much a 60's American,
chassis-wise.
2.73:1 is as steep as I'd want to go; it's about the right
compromise overall. It really wants a lower first gear; the
motor pulls hard, but the overall ratio in first is steep (it
was designed as an economy car...). It will just barely smoke
the tires from dead stop.
Yet performance at highway speeds is excellent; 50 - 80 mph,
I'm faster than most things on the road, it pulls like hell
to 90mph! But that's because 68mph = 2500 rpm, a bit fast for
maximum mileage... I feel like 2000 - 2100 for 65mph would be
better for mileage, but of course then performance would suffer
if I just changed the axle to get that.
AMC knew what it was doing; it picked a pretty good combo for
overall performance and mileage given a big inefficient six
and an inexpensive 3-speed auto trans. What did this car cost
new, $2500?!
The "ideal" combo for me would be a 15% lower total first-gear
overall ratio, yet 2000 rpm at 65mph. A four speed and
axle-juggling would get that (or my T150+OD).
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 15
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