AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 4
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 4
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- Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 03:10:43 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans info!!)
(farna@xxxxxxx)
2. Re: Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans info!!)
(Mark Price)
3. Cams on clearance (Mark Price)
4. Re: amc windshields (Matt Haas)
5. Re: Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans info!!)
(farna@xxxxxxx)
6. seat belt color (Steven Fox)
7. Priming a V8 (Todd Tomason)
8. Re: seat belt color (Tom Jennings)
9. Re: Priming a V8 (Tom Jennings)
10. t-89/r10od (d stohler)
11. Re: Priming a V8 (John Elle)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:06:33 +0000
From: farna@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans
info!!)
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx (AMC-List)
Message-ID:
<120220061606.28757.4571A489000934200000705521602813020E029D0E00@xxxxxxx>
Jerijan jerijan at adelphia.net
Tue Nov 28 20:09:52 UTC 2006
I have just spent the forth day doing an 'easy change' placing a 232 Transmission from 1970 into a 1965 American with a 196.
Easy Change...almost...
I was told it was a drop and do... Except...
I had to change the input shaft and the shaft the oil pump mounts to so the Torque converter would fit...
This is because the torque converter from the 196 would not fit the splines on the 232's tranny...Changed the bell housings and tried the 232 torque converter and...the bell housing would not allow the transmission to 'go in'..it hit the cowl with the engine lowered in the rear.
So...changed the two shafts in the front of the trans and...put the 196 torque converter on it and the original bell housing (from the 196) and...
AL-Ley-Leu-YA!! IT FIT INTO THE CAR...and every thing lined up nicely..
Everything, that is, except...
The YOKE.
The Yoke from the 196 does not go into the 232's tailshaft.
Seems the 232's yoke did fit the 196's tranny (strange, isn 't it?? Same with the torque convertor..the 232's fit the 196 but not vice versa)...
-----------------------------
You should have a model 43 transmission (1970 232), which is why you have so many problems! I haven't actually seen every automatic transmission AMC has used, at least not out of the car and side by side for comaprisons. Your interchange adventure uncovered a lot of information! The front pumps are slightly different, and I bet that M-43 shaft is made of a stronger material than the 196 shaft. That would be the only logical reason for not allowing the larger converter of the 232 to fit the 196 trans, but allowign the smaller converter to fit the 232 trans. The 67 American TSM does mention that the 3x and 4x are "similar in construction, design and operation" (probably mentioned in the 65 and 66 American TSMs also -- I only have big car TSM those years -- no mention of model numbers but the 65 appears to be M3x only). So it seems like the 3x and 4x are sort of like the TF 904 and 998 -- the 998 is a heavy duty 904 for all preactical purposes, and many parts interchange betwee!
n the t
wo, with most 998 parts being made the same size as the 904 but from stronger material (in most cases). Same with the yoke -- 232 needs a bigger u-joint, won't hurt to put the bigger one behind a 196 though.
You're the second person this year to mention air cooling for 4x tranny that is air cooled. I thought they were all fluid cooled, but that's obviously incorrect. They have the ABILITY to be fluid cooled, and some apparently were from the factory (depends on options, I guess, as one of the cars mentioned this year with an air cooled trans and no fluid cooler was a 68 or 69 Ambassador with 232), other were added at the dealer or by owners at some point in time. After careful examination of the TSMs, I can determine that the 4x series has the capability for liquid cooling, but the 3x series does not. All they need for air cooling is the correct torque converter with fan attached and the bell with air inlets/outlets. The key is the "converter out" tube in the 4x series. This goes over to a passage on the right front corner (with trans in car -- right side is driver's side of US models) of the trans under the oil pan. There is a plug in the side of the trans there, or the outlet !
line to
a cooler. There is another plug near the right rear that just empties back into the pan. It might be possible to intall this tube on a M3x and drill the passage. I can't tell if this tube is not present in air cooled 4x models or if there is another opening for converter return oil to go through if an external cooler is not used. I tend to believe the latter, either a pressure relief valve or an external cooler is partial flow, which would make more sense from a design standpoint. The converter is last in the line of fluid flow, fluid goes through the control valve body first, so a pressure drop at the "converter out" point won't affect trans operation.
Thanks for supplying the information on what it took to convert a M3x car to an M4x trans. It got me into the books a bit more! I'd have never guessed that the bell was noticeably bigger on the 4x if you hadn't completed this swap. You didn't mention what the 4x came from though, V-8 or I-6 car? That would likely make a difference -- the I-6 bell might be the same size for both, with the V-8 using a larger bell (and possibly converter). One final mystery!!
--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
(free download available!)
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 8:30:08 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans
info!!)
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: farna@xxxxxxx
Message-ID: <12206763.1165077008740.JavaMail.root@web33>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
The trans I sold and shipped to California a year or two ago was a S-42 model which I always assumed meant it was a S for service replacement.
I wonder if the guy ever got it installed? I wonder how different it was? I shipped it complete with converter and yoke. Hopefully the guy didn't have so many problems.
I know it did not have a tranny line fitting for liquid cooling! It also had the dipstick tube going into the case instead of the transpan.
I know it was a good working trans when I swapped it out to put in the 4.0L.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- farna@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Jerijan jerijan at adelphia.net
> Tue Nov 28 20:09:52 UTC 2006
>
> I have just spent the forth day doing an 'easy change' placing a 232 Transmission from 1970 into a 1965 American with a 196.
> Easy Change...almost...
> I was told it was a drop and do... Except...
> I had to change the input shaft and the shaft the oil pump mounts to so the Torque converter would fit...
> This is because the torque converter from the 196 would not fit the splines on the 232's tranny...Changed the bell housings and tried the 232 torque converter and...the bell housing would not allow the transmission to 'go in'..it hit the cowl with the engine lowered in the rear.
> So...changed the two shafts in the front of the trans and...put the 196 torque converter on it and the original bell housing (from the 196) and...
> AL-Ley-Leu-YA!! IT FIT INTO THE CAR...and every thing lined up nicely..
> Everything, that is, except...
> The YOKE.
> The Yoke from the 196 does not go into the 232's tailshaft.
> Seems the 232's yoke did fit the 196's tranny (strange, isn 't it?? Same with the torque convertor..the 232's fit the 196 but not vice versa)...
>
> -----------------------------
>
> You should have a model 43 transmission (1970 232), which is why you have so many problems! I haven't actually seen every automatic transmission AMC has used, at least not out of the car and side by side for comaprisons. Your interchange adventure uncovered a lot of information! The front pumps are slightly different, and I bet that M-43 shaft is made of a stronger material than the 196 shaft. That would be the only logical reason for not allowing the larger converter of the 232 to fit the 196 trans, but allowign the smaller converter to fit the 232 trans. The 67 American TSM does mention that the 3x and 4x are "similar in construction, design and operation" (probably mentioned in the 65 and 66 American TSMs also -- I only have big car TSM those years -- no mention of model numbers but the 65 appears to be M3x only). So it seems like the 3x and 4x are sort of like the TF 904 and 998 -- the 998 is a heavy duty 904 for all preactical purposes, and many parts interchange betw!
ee!
> n the t
> wo, with most 998 parts being made the same size as the 904 but from stronger material (in most cases). Same with the yoke -- 232 needs a bigger u-joint, won't hurt to put the bigger one behind a 196 though.
>
> You're the second person this year to mention air cooling for 4x tranny that is air cooled. I thought they were all fluid cooled, but that's obviously incorrect. They have the ABILITY to be fluid cooled, and some apparently were from the factory (depends on options, I guess, as one of the cars mentioned this year with an air cooled trans and no fluid cooler was a 68 or 69 Ambassador with 232), other were added at the dealer or by owners at some point in time. After careful examination of the TSMs, I can determine that the 4x series has the capability for liquid cooling, but the 3x series does not. All they need for air cooling is the correct torque converter with fan attached and the bell with air inlets/outlets. The key is the "converter out" tube in the 4x series. This goes over to a passage on the right front corner (with trans in car -- right side is driver's side of US models) of the trans under the oil pan. There is a plug in the side of the trans there, or the outle!
t !
> line to
> a cooler. There is another plug near the right rear that just empties back into the pan. It might be possible to intall this tube on a M3x and drill the passage. I can't tell if this tube is not present in air cooled 4x models or if there is another opening for converter return oil to go through if an external cooler is not used. I tend to believe the latter, either a pressure relief valve or an external cooler is partial flow, which would make more sense from a design standpoint. The converter is last in the line of fluid flow, fluid goes through the control valve body first, so a pressure drop at the "converter out" point won't affect trans operation.
>
> Thanks for supplying the information on what it took to convert a M3x car to an M4x trans. It got me into the books a bit more! I'd have never guessed that the bell was noticeably bigger on the 4x if you hadn't completed this swap. You didn't mention what the 4x came from though, V-8 or I-6 car? That would likely make a difference -- the I-6 bell might be the same size for both, with the V-8 using a larger bell (and possibly converter). One final mystery!!
>
>
> --
> Frank Swygert
> Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
> Magazine (AMC)
> For all AMC enthusiasts
> http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
> (free download available!)
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 8:35:41 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Cams on clearance
To: strokers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "AMC-DelMarVA: yahoogroups.com"
<AMC-DelMarVA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <8324729.1165077341415.JavaMail.root@web33>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I was looking thru the clearance section on Summitt's site last night and they have some six cylinder cams listed. Not real sure of what anyone may be building or looking for, I thought I would mention them. I think they listed them as Jeep, but it was late and I don't remember for sure, just go to the Clearance area and look thru the engine stuff.
They were $97.50 ea down from $117.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:13:41 -0500
From: Matt Haas <mhaas@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] amc windshields
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <4571FA95.2010405@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Try OEM Glass: http://www.oemglass.net/. Be prepared for a bit of
sticker shock. When I was trying to find a windshield for my former 66
Rebel (same glass you have) about 10 years ago, the price was in the
$500 - $600 range. They also could supply every other piece of glass for
the car and they could also provide it in either clear or Solex tinted.
Matt
KENT ANDERSON wrote:
> Dave mentioned some windshields he knows of. Does that supplier have a windshield for a '64 Classic 2-door hard top?
> Kenny
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
>
>
--
mhaas@xxxxxxx
Cincinnati, OH
http://www.mattsoldcars.com
1967 Rambler American wagon
1968 Rambler American sedan
===============================================================
According to a February survey of Internet holdouts released by
UCLA's Center for Communication Policy, people cite
not having a computer as the No. 1 reason they won't go online.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:21:17 +0000
From: farna@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Transmission Interchange.. (good M3x/M4x trans
info!!)
To: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
<120220062221.12439.4571FC5D0002B8D20000309721602807480E029D0E00@xxxxxxx>
All the Borg Warner auto transmissions used by AMC have model numbers like "AS2-40" (M-40) and "AS8-11" (M-11). This is a Borg-Warner numbering system. I beleive the first letter to be who the trans was made for (A = AMC), the first number to be the basic B-W trans model (the 2 and 8 in the examples), and the last number the revision or particular model of the basic version (40 and 11). So far my research stands up. We AMCers usually shorthand it to the end model number, thus an "AS8-11" becomes an M-11.
The M-4x series should have two plugs in the case on the right side. Those plugs can be removed and fittings added to use an external cooler. I'm not sure if one was available from the factory from AMC or not, might have been an aftermarket item some dealers provided. No liquid coolers or cooler lines are mentioned in the TSMs, not even for the M-1x series. You'd think a cooler would be a fleet/HD option, or a trialer towing option, but no mention in the TSM at all. A cooler isn't mentioned in a 66 owners or accessories booklet either. But they can be installed on a 4x models, just not the 3x.
--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
(free download available!)
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> The trans I sold and shipped to California a year or two ago was a S-42 model
> which I always assumed meant it was a S for service replacement.
> I wonder if the guy ever got it installed? I wonder how different it was? I
> shipped it complete with converter and yoke. Hopefully the guy didn't have so
> many problems.
> I know it did not have a tranny line fitting for liquid cooling! It also had the
> dipstick tube going into the case instead of the transpan.
> I know it was a good working trans when I swapped it out to put in the 4.0L.
> --
> Mark Price
> markprice242ATadelphia.net
> Morgantown, WV
>
>
> ---- farna@xxxxxxx wrote:
> > Jerijan jerijan at adelphia.net
> > Tue Nov 28 20:09:52 UTC 2006
> >
> > I have just spent the forth day doing an 'easy change' placing a 232
> Transmission from 1970 into a 1965 American with a 196.
> > Easy Change...almost...
> > I was told it was a drop and do... Except...
> > I had to change the input shaft and the shaft the oil pump mounts to so the
> Torque converter would fit...
> > This is because the torque converter from the 196 would not fit the splines on
> the 232's tranny...Changed the bell housings and tried the 232 torque converter
> and...the bell housing would not allow the transmission to 'go in'..it hit the
> cowl with the engine lowered in the rear.
> > So...changed the two shafts in the front of the trans and...put the 196 torque
> converter on it and the original bell housing (from the 196) and...
> > AL-Ley-Leu-YA!! IT FIT INTO THE CAR...and every thing lined up nicely..
> > Everything, that is, except...
> > The YOKE.
> > The Yoke from the 196 does not go into the 232's tailshaft.
> > Seems the 232's yoke did fit the 196's tranny (strange, isn 't it?? Same with
> the torque convertor..the 232's fit the 196 but not vice versa)...
> >
> > -----------------------------
> >
> > You should have a model 43 transmission (1970 232), which is why you have so
> many problems! I haven't actually seen every automatic transmission AMC has
> used, at least not out of the car and side by side for comaprisons. Your
> interchange adventure uncovered a lot of information! The front pumps are
> slightly different, and I bet that M-43 shaft is made of a stronger material
> than the 196 shaft. That would be the only logical reason for not allowing the
> larger converter of the 232 to fit the 196 trans, but allowign the smaller
> converter to fit the 232 trans. The 67 American TSM does mention that the 3x and
> 4x are "similar in construction, design and operation" (probably mentioned in
> the 65 and 66 American TSMs also -- I only have big car TSM those years -- no
> mention of model numbers but the 65 appears to be M3x only). So it seems like
> the 3x and 4x are sort of like the TF 904 and 998 -- the 998 is a heavy duty 904
> for all preactical purposes, and many parts interchange betwee!
> > n the t
> > wo, with most 998 parts being made the same size as the 904 but from stronger
> material (in most cases). Same with the yoke -- 232 needs a bigger u-joint,
> won't hurt to put the bigger one behind a 196 though.
> >
> > You're the second person this year to mention air cooling for 4x tranny that
> is air cooled. I thought they were all fluid cooled, but that's obviously
> incorrect. They have the ABILITY to be fluid cooled, and some apparently were
> from the factory (depends on options, I guess, as one of the cars mentioned this
> year with an air cooled trans and no fluid cooler was a 68 or 69 Ambassador with
> 232), other were added at the dealer or by owners at some point in time. After
> careful examination of the TSMs, I can determine that the 4x series has the
> capability for liquid cooling, but the 3x series does not. All they need for air
> cooling is the correct torque converter with fan attached and the bell with air
> inlets/outlets. The key is the "converter out" tube in the 4x series. This goes
> over to a passage on the right front corner (with trans in car -- right side is
> driver's side of US models) of the trans under the oil pan. There is a plug in
> the side of the trans there, or the outlet !
> > line to
> > a cooler. There is another plug near the right rear that just empties back
> into the pan. It might be possible to intall this tube on a M3x and drill the
> passage. I can't tell if this tube is not present in air cooled 4x models or if
> there is another opening for converter return oil to go through if an external
> cooler is not used. I tend to believe the latter, either a pressure relief valve
> or an external cooler is partial flow, which would make more sense from a design
> standpoint. The converter is last in the line of fluid flow, fluid goes through
> the control valve body first, so a pressure drop at the "converter out" point
> won't affect trans operation.
> >
> > Thanks for supplying the information on what it took to convert a M3x car to
> an M4x trans. It got me into the books a bit more! I'd have never guessed that
> the bell was noticeably bigger on the 4x if you hadn't completed this swap. You
> didn't mention what the 4x came from though, V-8 or I-6 car? That would likely
> make a difference -- the I-6 bell might be the same size for both, with the V-8
> using a larger bell (and possibly converter). One final mystery!!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Frank Swygert
> > Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
> > Magazine (AMC)
> > For all AMC enthusiasts
> > http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
> > (free download available!)
> > _______________________________________________
> > AMC-List mailing list
> > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> > or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:41:50 -0800
From: "Steven Fox" <bikerfox@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] seat belt color
To: <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <04b101c71673$d2b02dc0$4001a8c0@COMMANDCENTRAL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone have any experience with changing the color of seat belts? I have a green belt that I'd like to change to black. I know that there are dyes in stores, but am curious if anyone has achieved success with this or other methods.
Thanks, Steve
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:43:40 -0600
From: Todd Tomason <jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Priming a V8
To: AMC List <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200612021843.40627.jayscore@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
What does everyone use to prime the oil on an AMC V8? Does anyone make a
tools for this?
Todd
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:53:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] seat belt color
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612021651250.3047@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Steven Fox wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with changing the color of seat belts? I have a green belt that I'd like to change to black. I know that there are dyes in stores, but am curious if anyone has achieved success with this or other methods.
It seems to be an impervious nylon... I think it would be
dificult to dye. The good news is, it's really easy and cheap
to have an upholstery shop re-sew new ones. I paid $25 (one,
or both sides, I forget) for front seat replacement web, on the
original buckles (which I cleaned up before delivering to them).
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:54:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Priming a V8
To: AMC List <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612021653350.3047@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Todd Tomason wrote:
> What does everyone use to prime the oil on an AMC V8? Does anyone make a
> tools for this?
Old dud points distrib with the gear removed. A 3/8" electric
drill should fit over the tip (depending on distrib) if you
take off the mech advance unit.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:58:45 -0800 (PST)
From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] t-89/r10od
To: amc list <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <465406.45182.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
i still have a newly rebuilt t89/r10 od. i need to
find it a home. the moisture in the air around here is
going to make it rust. i want to see it go to someones
use.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 20:10:28 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Priming a V8
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000501c71688$99e34440$06dd0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Todd
Snip
What does everyone use to prime the oil on an AMC V8? Does anyone make
a
tools for this?
Todd
Snip
I use an old flat blade screw drive that I cut the handle off of and
insert the shaft in my variable speed
3/8 drill motor.
I also use the same piece when I prime an I-6.
I insert the flat blade of the screw driver in the slot that the oil
pump shaft has that mates with the bottom of the distributor and after
determining which way it should turn I run it until I see oil coming out
something in the head.
I have also used it to shoot a stream of oil completely across the
garage when I forgot to screw in the oil pressure sending unit on the
last I-6 I rebuilt.
Great toy!
John/
------------------------------
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 4
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