AMC-List Digest, Vol 7, Issue 33

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: air cooled trannys (Jim Blair)
   2. Re: air cooled trannys (Mark Price)
   3. Strut bushings (Tom Jennings)
   4. Re: Strut bushings (Sandwich Maker)
   5. SC Sold (Gary)
   6. Strut Rod Bushings again- '70 -'8X (John Elle)
   7. Re: Strut bushings (Tom Jennings)
   8.  Strut Rod Bushings again- '70 -'8X
      (francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
   9. Re: Strut bushings (francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
  10. Air Cooled Transmissions (John Elle)
  11. Re: Strut bushings (francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
  12. 250 engine block wanted (Eddie Stakes)
  13. 69 Hurst SC/Rambler for sale $8K/obo (Eddie Stakes)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:24:24 -0700
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] air cooled trannys
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F44AD75EDD68521BC2C6DFAC4D0@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Do you have AC? I ran a mini air duct to the inlet of my aircleaner to help 
keep engine heat and ping down while running AC in the desert. Same thing 
should work with the trans pan.


important Non-AMC links (email me offline about them)

http://www.loosechange911.com/
or just watch the video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726





From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] air cooled trannys
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608161446210.6573@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, russ hathaway wrote:

>How much pressure would be lost if two fittings were
>installed in the pan? Sealing the fittings would be
>easy, running the lines with an external filter a
>piece of cake and I am thinking of a marine sump pump
>to circulate things. Aren't those pumps adjustable?

The problem here is that though there is one fluid pickup,
via the filter, there are many outlets to the pan (from the
internals).

Two, there are at least two kinds of filters; a flat screen
that fits onto the valve body, and another that has a sort of
air cleaner-like funnel that picks fluid up from the center of
the pan more or less.

I think without knowing pan oil flow, you could end up running
fluid in a circle through the pump, and not do any cooling
at all.

>Hydraulic fluid won't hurt them, right?

Trans fluid isn't hydraulic fluid. And I know that it eats
black fuel line -- there is special "transmission fluid" hose
used for trannie coolers.

>As if I don't have enough to do, now you guys got me
>thinking of tearing up a perfectly good running
>American. THANKS A LOT......Russ

Good luck! I would love to see how it goes (in spite of my
cynicism :-)

I'm thinking of simply adding a temp gauge to the trans, and
slowing down when it shows hot :-)

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 9:59:40 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] air cooled trannys
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <4140262.1155833980804.JavaMail.root@web30>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I'd look for a pump designed for high heat applications.
Some off-road and Endurance racers use a pump to circulate gear lube.
The remote mounted Turbo setup also uses a pump IIRC.
No idea on cost or availability.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV


---- Ken Ames <ameskg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> The pressure in the pan should be near atmospheric as the vent/fill tube is
> 'open' to the air. A bilge pump may not be able to run full time like you'd need
> for a cooler. 
> 
> Ken
> 
> Quoting russ hathaway <russh97309@xxxxxxxxx>:
> 
> > How much pressure would be lost if two fittings were
> > installed in the pan? Sealing the fittings would be
> > easy, running the lines with an external filter a
> > piece of cake and I am thinking of a marine sump pump
> > to circulate things. Aren't those pumps adjustable?
> > Hydraulic fluid won't hurt them, right?
> > As if I don't have enough to do, now you guys got me
> > thinking of tearing up a perfectly good running
> > American. THANKS A LOT......Russ
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > _______________________________________________
> > AMC-List mailing list
> > AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> > 
> > or go to http://www.amc-list.com
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> 
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Strut bushings
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608171111260.6573@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I'm sure everyone is just THRILLED to read more of my rantings
on AMC strut bushings. The second one below is new information.

I'll keep it short: 

(1) good replacement strut bushings for the
non-adjustable-strut-rod cars (eg. 63, 64 Classic/Ambo) do
not exist, and nothing can be substituted for them -- but good
replacements are easily fabricated. Here's how (old news):

http://wps.com/AMC/Strut-bushing/index.html

(2) for modern cars, with adjustable strut rods (a nut on both
sides of the bushings) you can buy replacements, but most are
utter crap.  BUYER BEWARE! Here is my documented research into
three brands. This is new information (meaning, it took me a
year to put this page up).

http://wps.com/AMC/Strut-bushing-modern/index.html




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sandwich Maker)
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut bushings
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <200608172029.k7HKTeH21519@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

" From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
" 
" []
" 
" (1) good replacement strut bushings for the
" non-adjustable-strut-rod cars (eg. 63, 64 Classic/Ambo) do
" not exist, and nothing can be substituted for them -- but good
" replacements are easily fabricated. Here's how (old news):
" 
" http://wps.com/AMC/Strut-bushing/index.html

i see where you say the '65-up strut rod is the right length but the
control arm end is angled wrong.  would it be possible to use '65-up
lower control arms on the '63-4 cars?  unmodified modern bushings
could then be used.
________________________________________________________________________
Andrew Hay                                  the genius nature
internet rambler                            is to see what all have seen
adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                       and think what none thought


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:53:01 -0400
From: "Gary" <gwniel@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] SC Sold
To: "AMC LIst" <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000501c6c247$831d4d40$6701a8c0@valuedb01b7012>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Just posting that the SC sold. Thx



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:43:15 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Strut Rod Bushings again- '70 -'8X
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000401c6c256$ecd86b20$07dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I'm getting ready to rebuild another front end again, a '74 and a '76. 
I have 3 TSMs, a '70, a '74 and an'80 and if I look some more I may have
motor manuals that show this too!
All 3 TSMS show a line drawing of the single strut rod bushing and the 2
part strut rod bushings except the '74 manual. 
>From this I can assume that either one will work no matter which one I
prefer. 
My rebuild kits from Kanter included the single strut rod bushings. 
I also have a set of install instructions that was included with a set
of 2 part strut rod bushings. It indicates the AMC and Ford use the same
bushing.
Why am I writing this? None of the documents above show how to put in
any of the bushings the same way. They are all different!
The instructions included with the 2 part sets show how to install them
in a Ford. The strut rod on a Ford goes forward from the control arm to
the radiator area. 
The strut rod on an AMC goes back to the front seat foot well area. 
So what is the feeling out there in AMC land. I have rebuilt about a
dozen or better AMC front ends. I assembled them from the instructions
in the 2 part sets as far as I can remember mentally reversing the order
of the cupped washers as the strut rod goes the other direction. As far
as I know none of them have fallen apart!
But now that I am trying to figure out how to install the single units I
am noticing that none of the documentation is in agreement. 
Go Figure!!!
John


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:26:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut bushings
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608171725180.6573@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Sandwich Maker wrote:

> " http://wps.com/AMC/Strut-bushing/index.html
> 
> i see where you say the '65-up strut rod is the right length but the
> control arm end is angled wrong.  would it be possible to use '65-up
> lower control arms on the '63-4 cars?  unmodified modern bushings
> could then be used.

I did not try 65, but later ones do not work; wrong angle. And
it's hardened, I'm not messin' with it. I know front ends were
in flux from 63 up through the double-ball joint system.


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:26:03 -0000
From: <francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List]  Strut Rod Bushings again- '70 -'8X
To: <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>, <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<8B4C911BEBA5E24888E353FF362B9E7702E6609B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
	
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Install the AMC/Ford bushing as the instructions included with the kit.
The shape of the rubber has a lot to do with the way it's installed.
Install the washers as instructed by the kit also, not the way they cam
off. The single piece bushing has the cupped washers backwards from the
way you'd think they would go, IIRC. 

I've had problems with the one piece units. The ones I had must have
been sitting in a warehouse 10+ years -- they cracked up as they were
installed and didn't last long after. I won't use them any more. It's
hard to use the two piece with a non-adjustable strut rod, but can be
done. If I get another car with non-adjustable strut rods I'll make them
adjustable like I did my 63 wagon.

--------------------------
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2006 06:43 PM
From: John Elle <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx> 
I'm getting ready to rebuild another front end again, a '74 and a '76.
I have 3 TSMs, a '70, a '74 and an'80 and if I look some more I may have
motor manuals that show this too!
All 3 TSMS show a line drawing of the single strut rod bushing and the 2
part strut rod bushings except the '74 manual.
>From this I can assume that either one will work no matter which one I
prefer.
My rebuild kits from Kanter included the single strut rod bushings.
I also have a set of install instructions that was included with a set
of 2 part strut rod bushings. It indicates the AMC and Ford use the same
bushing.
Why am I writing this? None of the documents above show how to put in
any of the bushings the same way. They are all different!
The instructions included with the 2 part sets show how to install them
in a Ford. The strut rod on a Ford goes forward from the control arm to
the radiator area.
The strut rod on an AMC goes back to the front seat foot well area.
So what is the feeling out there in AMC land. I have rebuilt about a
dozen or better AMC front ends. I assembled them from the instructions
in the 2 part sets as far as I can remember mentally reversing the order
of the cupped washers as the strut rod goes the other direction. As far
as I know none of them have fallen apart!
But now that I am trying to figure out how to install the single units I
am noticing that none of the documentation is in agreement.
Go Figure!!!
John




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:36:31 -0000
From: <francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut bushings
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<8B4C911BEBA5E24888E353FF362B9E7702E6609C@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
	
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

What a time not to have my books with me!! I wouldn't say that the front
ends were in a "state of flux" -- there were two versions of one basic
design. There were two different strut rods and lower arms, and trunnion
designs -- one for the small cars and one for the big. The small cars
used a bolt on turn stop, the big cars had the stop made into the ends
of the strut rods. The change occurred in 67 or 68 (I think 68 models --
this is where my books would come in handy!) -- the strut rod changed to
an adjustable type, and the end that bolted to the lower control arm
changed on the big cars. I think they went to a bolt on stop at this
point also. 63-66 (or 67) should be the same, 67 (or 68) to 69 should be
the same. 70 and later strut rods are straight for the small cars, I
think the big cars still have a curved end to bolt to the lower control
arm. 

I don't know about the strut rod bushings. There does seem to be some
experimentation with the shape of the rubber and position of the washers
after 1970. For the most part non-adjustable strut rod bushings are one
piece, adjustable two piece. But as John Elle indicated in another
message, there is a one piece in the early 70s with the adjustable strut
rod. 


--------------------------------
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2006 07:26 PM
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> 
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Sandwich Maker wrote:

> " http://wps.com/AMC/Strut-bushing/index.html
>
> i see where you say the '65-up strut rod is the right length but the
> control arm end is angled wrong.  would it be possible to use '65-up
> lower control arms on the '63-4 cars?  unmodified modern bushings
> could then be used.

I did not try 65, but later ones do not work; wrong angle. And
it's hardened, I'm not messin' with it. I know front ends were
in flux from 63 up through the double-ball joint system.




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:55:08 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Air Cooled Transmissions
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000c01c6c27a$1d37e980$07dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

For what it's worth. 
It seems to me this subject came up here locally a couple of years ago
and the general consensus was that air cooled transmissions actually had
pipe plug capped fittings that you could unscrew the pipe plugs from and
screw in lines that could be run to an external cooler if you wanted to
go through that work. 
I have been wracking my brains trying to be more specific but senior
moments seem to clog up the thought process. 
Is there any truth to this?
John.  


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:07:54 -0000
From: <francis.swygert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Strut bushings
To: <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<8B4C911BEBA5E24888E353FF362B9E7702E6609D@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
	
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

That's a good thought Andrew -- if the ball joint tapers are the same
(they changed somtime in the mid sixties) that should work. I know the
ball joint mount bolt pattern changed at some point too, and that would
affect using an old style ball joint with a new arm/strut rod. The ball
joint mounting plate (attached to the joint) can be drilled, but it is a
hard steel and needs to be done at the correct speed in a drill press
with cutting oil. 

I cut two Concord strut rods and two 63 Classic strut rods and welded
them together. This DOES NOT affect the strength of the rods! The rod
ends were ground to a bevel down to ~1/8" diameter flats in the center.
The very center of the rods were welded with 6010 rods for best
penetration, then the diameter was built up with 7010. The first two
numbers in the rod number is the tensile strngth of the metal in 1,000
psi units -- 60,000 and 70,000 in this case. This is typical welding
practice. The composition of the 6010 rods allow a high penetration,
while the stronger 7010 rod penetrates a little less but builds up
(fills in) much better. The weld is actually stronger than the metal --
even the stronger steel used for the strut rod. If a weld breaks it will
usually break at the edge of the weld. The metal isn't usually as strong
as the weld material or (and) it was overheated. The key it to weld a
litte, let it cool, then weld some more. For the strut rods it's easy! I
clamped the rods in the valley of a piece of angle iron, which also
acted as a heat sink. Only about 1/2 of the strut rod can be welded a a
time. Then it's turned and the other side welded. The weld should be
about 1/8" thick at a time, so it takes about three passes to build it
back to a little thicker than required. Leave it clamped in until it
cools close to room temperature -- at least an hour. DO NOT "quench"
(cool) with water right away!! Give it a minimum of 30 minutes to cool
naturally, then it can be cooled with a damp (but not dripping wet)
towel. An hour is better! Quenching will add hardness -- but it will be
brittle and break a lot easier. 

You don't have to have a pair of adjustable strut rods. A 6" grade 8
threaded steel stud the correct diameter, available at industrial
fastener supply houses, will work just fine. Cut 6" off the original
strut rod and weld the stud to the end using the same method. 

--------------------------
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2006 03:29 PM
From: andrew hay <adh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
" From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
"
" []
"
" (1) good replacement strut bushings for the
" non-adjustable-strut-rod cars (eg. 63, 64 Classic/Ambo) do
" not exist, and nothing can be substituted for them -- but good
" replacements are easily fabricated. Here's how (old news):
"
" http://wps.com/AMC/Strut-bushing/index.html

i see where you say the '65-up strut rod is the right length but the
control arm end is angled wrong.  would it be possible to use '65-up
lower control arms on the '63-4 cars?  unmodified modern bushings
could then be used.




------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:45:10 -0500
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 250 engine block wanted
To: "AMC List" <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: donskokie@xxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <017e01c6c282$8d06d4d0$0ff4b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

I'm looking for a 250 engine block to play around with. I don't need a full 
250 engine just the block as I have most of the internal parts from 287s and 
327s, also head and such. Would consider a full engine as well. Mick 
donskokie@xxxxxxxxx 208-412-5074
=====================================
anyone with above please feel free to give them a shout above, thanks,
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.planethoustonamx.com



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:46:35 -0500
From: "Eddie Stakes" <eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 69 Hurst SC/Rambler for sale $8K/obo
To: "AMC List" <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <baadassgremlins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Michael C. Baumberger" <baumbergers@xxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <017f01c6c282$8d5a4c00$0ff4b148@piageedc1iqa5q>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

FOR SALE: 69 Hurst SC/Rambler. I over estimated what I had spent on this car 
so far and I am offering it at lower price than posted before. $8000 OBO 
This car is rough as stated before but, hey, how many are left. The BBG AMX 
that I had posted before is also still for sale and which ever goes first 
the other is off the market. Eddie thanks again for the space and time. Mike 
Baumberger baumbergers@xxxxxxxx 805-440-7724
===================================
anyone interested in photos above, please give them a shout, thanks,
Eddie Stakes'
Planet Houston AMX
713.464.8825
eddiestakes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.planethoustonamx.com



------------------------------

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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 7, Issue 33
***************************************