AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 19
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AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 19
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- Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:19:18 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. marty: surge problem (d stohler)
2. Re: 401 engine surge (John Elle)
3. 401 Surge Applies to an engine (Jesse)
4. Re: 401 Engine surge problem (Jim Blair)
5. Re: 401 Engine surge problem (Tom Jennings)
6. Re: 401 Engine surge problem (Mark Price)
7. Re: I Shouldn't Have Done It (Mark Price)
8. Ambo progress (Mark Price)
9. tailpipes for sale (Jay)
10. Fw: tailpipes for sale (revised) (Jay)
11. Re: 401 engine surge/my error (John Elle)
12. Re: 401 surge problems. (John Elle)
13. Surge Ie - Oh (Brien Tourville)
14. Surging 401 update (Marty Bricker)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 05:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: d stohler <das24rules@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] marty: surge problem
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060709125526.7037.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
check your carb float level or secondary jet system. i had an old q-jet i had on my ford. for some reason, at speed, it would keep the fuel flowing at high speed. you would think at idle, using less fuel it would pump the fuel thru the overflow. if its a new edelbrock, that would be a strange problem because usually edelbrocks dont have that kind of problem and are already pretty well adjusted when you pull strait out of the box if you talk to them prior to ordering. anyway, the overflow runs right down the throat of the carb so if it is getting a constant flow, even just a little, will go right into the intake, and can change your fuel ratio, richen it up, maybe to much at times, and bog it down. my 71 ford would just keep flowing thru the secondary booster pump. it may have had a crack in the booster diaphram, i just got a rebuild kit, and rebuilt it. edelbrock builds them q-jets now. if it is a used carb, check that... hope this is some help.
dave stohler
camp taji iraq
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 06:04:18 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401 engine surge
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000001c6a358$33ff0b80$e2dd0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Marty
SNIP
Drove to a car show late afternoon and at about 65-70 the car statrted
surging. It stopped after 3-5 surges but did it again before we arrived
at the car show (this was during an 11 mi freeway run. On the way home
9about 4 hours later) it did the same thing. I gave it more gas and it
stopped doing it. The second time it started surging I tried to give it
more gas and it stopped surging but started to slow and felt like it
would stall. I let up on the gas this time and it recovered. Any
suggestions?
SNIP
Other than it couldabeen anything the first 2 places I would look at
would be the possibility of a gasket not seating correctly between the
intake manifold and head(s) or carburetor and intake, causing a vacuum
leak of sorts but the easiest to check would be the power valve in the
Holley either being calibrated to activate at a vacuum level that the
engine is not happy with or in a failure mode.
Dese are my 'gestions!
Good luck, sounds like a nice package.
John
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 06:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jesse <j2sax@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 401 Surge Applies to an engine
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060709132758.19400.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I would start with fuel/delivery. Check your lines
and make sure they are far enough away from heat
sources (exh.) and make sure they are not pinched
anywhere. WHat kind of pump are you running? Where
are your filters and what kind are they? Is your tank
sock healthy? Is your EVAP/return system intact?
Have you tweaked the Carb settings any?
Many times a high volume pump can suck the tank up to
the point where it restricts fuel intake. ALso,
sometimes it can collapse fuel lines, which has the
same effect.
As usual, fire comes next, but this feels like fuel.
Don't put a lot of miles on this until you fig out the
problem, especially if it is a fresh rebuild. Lack of
fuel can cause extemem lean conditions for short
pulses that can cause you problems in the future.
Good luck!
Jesse
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 08:21:49 -0700
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401 Engine surge problem
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F2F6FF855EEAC1E6D9F107AC6A0@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Odds are the gas tank sock has collapsed or the fuel pump inlet valve has
stuff sticking it open and causing low pressure. The fuel filter could also
be the culprit (not to mention the rubber hoses at the tank or the motor
before the fuel pump may be MTBE treated piccolos!) I added a filter before
my fuel pump in every vehicle I have owned for years. The one in my '73
J4000 clogged up on me last night when I was out to pick up my 327 (cruising
at 70 mph was nearly impossible to do) Fortunately I keep spare elements in
the getcha back box and I was already in grubby clothes.
I found a safe spot to pull over (relatively speaking. Earlier yesterday
I barely avoided being hit by a jerk in a Humvee speeding through town
because he was too busy yapping on the cellphone to notice his light was
red. Person in the car behind me wasn't as lucky!) and I was back on the
road in 5 minutes, slightly smelling of gasoline. Part of the reason for my
extra filter is I burn old gas (that isn't tainted) from cars I part out.
From: Marty Bricker <mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] 401 Engine surge problem
To: AMC List <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, amx70spudster@xxxxxxxxx,
northtexasamc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20060709054622.21368.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Took the Javelin AMX out for a drive this morning and
it ran fine (about 12 mi on freeway). Drove to a car
show late afternoon and at about 65-70 the car
statrted surging. It stopped after 3-5 surges but did
it again before we arrived at the car show (this was
during an 11 mi freeway run. On the way home 9about 4
hours later) it did the same thing. I gave it more
gas and it stopped doing it. The second time it
started surging I tried to give it more gas and it
stopped surging but started to slow and felt like it
would stall. I let up on the gas this time and it
recovered.
Any suggestions?
Engine is a recently rebuilt 401 (approx 300 mi on
rebuild with Indy head, RMP Air Gap, Edelbrock 750
man, MSD Ready To Run distrib).
Thanks.
Marty
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 10:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401 Engine surge problem
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0607091029440.4027@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 9 Jul 2006, Jim Blair wrote:
> Odds are the gas tank sock has collapsed or the fuel pump inlet valve has
> stuff sticking it open and causing low pressure. The fuel filter could also
Or wrong gas cap! If popping the gas cap causes a big WOOSH
of air in, it's sealed and shouldn't be, or sealed, and the
return tank vent hose (year, model, state, smog, etc) is plugged
or whatever.
Plain old low-flow fuel pump problem?
This happened to me once, on a 258 six, no less -- slightly
loose fuel hose clamp on the SUCTION side of the pump, sucking
air! I could actually hear it, like pulsating sucking through
your teeth. Pulled on the hose and it changed.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 10:58:07 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401 Engine surge problem
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Marty Bricker <mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <863336.1152467887340.JavaMail.root@web30>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hmm, sounds fuel related. Crud in the carb would be my first guess?
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Marty Bricker <mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Took the Javelin AMX out for a drive this morning and
> it ran fine (about 12 mi on freeway). Drove to a car
> show late afternoon and at about 65-70 the car
> statrted surging. It stopped after 3-5 surges but did
> it again before we arrived at the car show (this was
> during an 11 mi freeway run. On the way home 9about 4
> hours later) it did the same thing. I gave it more
> gas and it stopped doing it. The second time it
> started surging I tried to give it more gas and it
> stopped surging but started to slow and felt like it
> would stall. I let up on the gas this time and it
> recovered.
> Any suggestions?
> Engine is a recently rebuilt 401 (approx 300 mi on
> rebuild with Indy head, RMP Air Gap, Edelbrock 750
> man, MSD Ready To Run distrib).
> Thanks.
> Marty
>
> __________________________________________________
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> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 11:05:21 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I Shouldn't Have Done It
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Jim Blair <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <6019249.1152468321116.JavaMail.root@web30>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yeah, barf. I waste no time tellingm y kids if they want a performance car don't weigh it down with all that crap! I'm slowly getting thru too! Everytime my kid sees a WRX Sti he says soemthign about wanting one and I come back with yeah and the first thing I would do is sell that wale tail piece of crap to some kid with a basic WRX or RS and put the smaller rear spoiler on. Last time I said the both kids siad yeah that thing just weighs down the car! My oldest said you'd have to be going like 200 mph to get any effect out of it!
I got everyone stirred up with saying my oldest wants a Wrangler, well the youngest wants my brothers 2000 Mustang convertible or a Corvette. Last weekend he took a shine to humpsters as they resemble the Corvette [his words], So maybe there is hope for him yet! Anyone have a humpster I can GIVE him, Yeah right.
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
---- Jim Blair <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Had a 17 YO kid come in today with his Sugar Momma. He graduated with
> average marks so she bought him an '06 Stang. What was he looking for you
> ask? Checking out the NOS equipment (coming back tomorrow to buy the whole
> kit she says) and wanting neon lights for in, on and under his car! :barf!:
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 11:49:33 -0700
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Ambo progress
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <2030303.1152470973756.JavaMail.root@web30>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Lest some think the chances of this car ever getting done is zero, including myself, I would like to report that I actually worked on it yesterday!
The right side inder fender trough is being replaced with a piece of conduit that I have very carefully ground the galvanized zinc coating off of. I also opened all the shop doors and have been very carefull to ventilate the work area. Should have got somemild steel tube, but could not get my hands on any easily and this was free.
I started by bolting all the spring tower to firewall braces in, then tack welded a piece of rectangular steel across the top of the inner fenders just in front of the spring towers. With the rust repair completed on the rear of the inner fenders this allowed everything to be stiff enough to allow me to finally cut the rotted trough out.
Then I angled the conduit from the outside corner of the cowl corner in to the corner where the front of the inner fender meets the core support headlight area. My reason for this angle was the wish that should I or anyone get into an accident this solid piece of tube should not be pointed at a passenegr or operater. The way it sits now it will either drive back outside the passenegr compartment or buckle at some point along it's length.
Once it was welded in place, I started filling the gap between the inner fender top and the tube with some 16 gauge steel I have. The angle is perfect in the front and slopes down enough to allow any water a gunk splashed up on top to drain off. I was also careful to try and get the plate to join the tube right at the top so there is not a crevasse for the crud to lay.
I need to make a small plate to come out from the spring tower to the tube and get a little creative in the back to allow for good drainage of the rear area as it will not be as sloped as the front. I'm really hoping to get the rest of this wrapped up in the next weekor so.
I'm figuring 4-6 hours will complete this corner of the cars rot issues!
I also found myself realizing that while it may seem nutty to put this much work into saving a 65 Ambassador, Not a sole would think I was nuts if this was a 65 Mustang!!!
My plans remain on track. Fix rust, prime in satin black epoxy, Install driveline and get it running. Bolt on the best parts I have and cruise! If I decide it is a keeper I will consider paint and finish work later. At least I will have saved it from the graveyard for a while!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:16:31 -0400
From: "Jay" <jciampi@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] tailpipes for sale
To: "AMC LIST" <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000701c6a38c$30172550$669b1ecf@Ciampi>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I have 3 unused tailpipes for a 63-66 AMB/Classic V8 station wagon. I have
2 for the 3 passenger wagon and one for a 6 passenger wagon. I was going to
use them for putting dual exhaust on my 66 AMB wagon but sold the car before
I got around to it.
I'll take $10./each plus shipping for each one. They are NOT the
ceramic-coated pipes. they are aftermarket units I had made up for me.
Jay Ciampi
jciampi@xxxxxxxx
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 15:21:42 -0400
From: "Jay" <jciampi@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Fw: tailpipes for sale (revised)
To: "AMC LIST" <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001601c6a38c$e95887c0$669b1ecf@Ciampi>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay" <jciampi@xxxxxxxx>
To: "AMC LIST" <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 3:16 PM
Subject: [AMC-List] tailpipes for sale
>I have 3 unused tailpipes for a 63-66 AMB/Classic V8 station wagon. I have
> 2 for the 9 passenger wagon and one for a 6 passenger wagon. I was going
> to
> use them for putting dual exhaust on my 66 AMB wagon but sold the car
> before
> I got around to it.
> I'll take $10./each plus shipping for each one. They are NOT the
> ceramic-coated pipes. they are aftermarket units I had made up for me.
>
> Jay Ciampi
> jciampi@xxxxxxxx
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 12:27:29 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401 engine surge/my error
To: "'Marty Bricker'" <mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000201c6a38d$bbf464b0$e2dd0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Marty
SNAIP
John,
I said it was an Edelbrock, but it's actually a
Carter 750 manual (Carter and Edelbrock, it's my
understanding, are clones). Do they have a power
valve? How is it checked? I did have the carb off
several times adjusting and rechecking the float
levels so I will check that also. Thanks.
Marty
SNIP
That you did, my error I read what I wanted to read now what you wrote!
Sorry about that.
Carter/Edelbrock do not use power valves there for do not fail. I never
had a problem with a Carter/Edelbrock surging so am at a lost as to what
to suspect right this min.
Apologies, if I think of something else will drop a line.
John.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 13:22:09 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] 401 surge problems.
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <000301c6a395$5ee9c0f0$e2dd0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Marty,
Putting the thinking cap back on.
Problem:
Gaskets that do not seat causing vacuum leaks, diagnostics, spray wd30
or carb cleaner at surface in question, if a leak is involved it will
suck it in causing running problems and/or smoke out through the
exhaust.
Problem
'Rubber hoses to fuel lines old and cracking causing fuel pump to suck
air. I have had this happen on a number of cars over the last two years.
The fuel lines at the gas tank, which includes fuel return line for
bypass systems if you have them will crack etc. When fuel pump sucks it
will suck air into the fuel line causing surging problems similar to
what you are describing. Solution, inspect all lines, look for damaged
and cracked hoses and replace them.
Problem
Fuel filter plugged. Not all that uncommon. If you can't blow through
them, gasoline can not pass through them.
Solution. Replace the fuel lines connecting hoses etc.
Problem
Related to above, rusty fuel lines fail and air gets sucked through
them.
Solution, replace rusted fuel lines.
Problem,
Fuel pump in failure mode. I have had 4 fuel pumps go out in the last 2
years with no warning at all.
Solution, diagnostic, measure fuel pressure at carburetor if you have a
gauge, if not it is a good tool to have around for cases such as this,
about $30.00 or so at Checkers and other fine autoparts stores. Maybe
less. If problem, replace fuel pump
O.k.,
Brain drain done. Good luck
John.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 16:51:54 -0400
From: "Brien Tourville" <hh7x@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Surge Ie - Oh
To: mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <44B1342A.30633.B651003@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
My '66 GTO did this one summer on Long Beach Island
NJ. I was booked into Joe Pop's Shore Bar with my 8 piece
- played bass behind the Shirelles - the Coasters - opened
for Chubby Checker - 5 Satins - great Summer top down
- all except for the Carb floats which started shutting down fuel.
A few rapps on the carb worked for awhile - drained the
float bowls of any water & crud which got a few days more.
Rather than a rebuild I had K&G Speed Associates in Pa.
ship me a new Holley 4bbl.
Check your fuel filters - tank crud - or water in tank from
bad fuel.
Brien Tourville
NEW YORK
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 14:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marty Bricker <mbrickerusn@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Surging 401 update
To: northtexasamc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, AMC List <amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <20060709211915.48649.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Thanks for all of the suggestions so far. Problem is
still there...slightly worse after todays runs. Here
is the latest:
-changed fuel filter (74 Jav/AMX doesn't have a fuel
return line on the filter). I even cut the filter
open and it was very clean inside.
-checked all of the lines from the tank and the pump
and there are no kinks (rubber lines were replaced
when engine rebuilt)
-Went out for a run and had surging problem again
(approx 3000 rpm)
-pulled off and removed and plugged vacuum advance
-next run surging started even sooner so I pulled off
and reconnected vacuum advance
-ran engine up to 3200 rpm in neutral and no surging
-back on road and reconnecting vac advance had no
effect on early surging (even noticed on exit at 20-25
mph that was a fairly steep climbing turn)
-got home and checked tranny fluid level and it's
right on
-again ran engine to 3000+ rpm in neutral and no
surging
-fuel pump is stock
-removed the air filter and no indications of fuel
boiling/dripping into the carb
-I'm running Shell 93 octane that was purchased the
same day as problem started
-Fuel line is rubber (vice metal) and runs up the
front of the engine, between the valve cover and
intake manifold on the drivers side and across the
firewall to the inlet of the carb on the passenger
side (line is enclosed in pipe insulation). I had a
previous problem with fuel boiling/dripping into the
carb when I would stop that I corrected by rerouting
the fuel line (it previously ran under the engine and
up the back of the firewall but that was too close to
the exhaust).
-the floats have been set and rechecked several times
when working the boiling/dripping problem and the
inlet valves are new.
Marty
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End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 6, Issue 19
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